Jobs are balanced equally and no class is considered meta.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

Even if you purify mch stun BTE will still proc and you will still have to use an instant heal and purify will be on CD for 90s. Mch also has multiple burst rotations so another will come out while your purify is down. Not to mention the mch is silencing you and stealing a gcd away from you every 30s.

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I know that, it isn't for defending the damage, it is to allow me to heal after it. If I get bound from a distance (MCH sound esp) I do not bother to purify and have my finger on the button on it and Lustrate to see what the plan is. If anyone walks up to me I am running away (going to the post saying I am oversimplifying things) If I have stacks there is no reason for me to stand in a spot, I mean I am rarely hit by close range stuns other then PLD yolos, and nothing much I can do about that other then spiriting in circles.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

So many people here that have no idea how PvP is in this game.

Even with purify, or being a tank or whatever, this will DESTROY you. If it doesn't one shot you, the next OGCD nuke will.
Just looking at MCH, they'll pop everything they have, and pump you full with Between the Eyes, Gauss Shot, Ricochet, a push back, stun, Lead shot and if somehow you're still alive, Hypercharge will cripple you for the next person.

Did I mention this all happens within 10 seconds?

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That next move is still DELAYED, i healed though it before, I have 10,4k Hp in PvP. My heal, Lustrate will register before any follow up made by a single person, also MCH doesn't have a 2k follow up, (least I never seen one) unlike brd. You need 2 people, even with a in between the eyes, like in the OP, to land at the same time, to kill me. The only way to get me is to weaken me enough, stun, then do it, you need to kill me with it. I think people have tried but misjudged because I pad HP a bit.

Of course I'm dead meat without my stacks .. so there is that too, I tend to fall further back when I am spent like that though.

MCH has Auto-crit Clean Shot/Ricochet/Gauss Round/Stun Gun and even Slug Shot can get upwards to 2k damage under buffs.

MCH burst is very versatile, and can do easy mind games. Such as bind you (like above), assuming you're going to oGCD heal damage, walk up to you, stun lock, kill you. If you intend to attune, that can easily be baited too and since they are range they can easily switch their burst to another target.

OR bind you behind a wall to force you to purify, pray esuna get's bind, or watch your team die.

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

MCH has Auto-crit Clean Shot/Ricochet/Gauss Round/Stun Gun and even Slug Shot can get upwards to 2k damage under buffs.

MCH burst is very versatile, and can do easy mind games. Such as bind you (like above), assuming you're going to oGCD heal damage, walk up to you, stun lock, kill you. If you intend to attune, that can easily be baited too and since they are range they can easily switch their burst to another target.

OR bind you behind a wall to force you to purify, pray esuna get's bind, or watch your team die.

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yer on my server, id like to see that in action, wanna duel sometime? XD

If by duel you mean 4v4 light party, then sure. Dueling 1v1 demonstrates nothing, unless it's just the burst itself you want to see. Even then, I don't have MCH leveled myself.

Kind of off-topic, but looking at this duscussion does make me wonder: do you guys think the SMN nerfs in PVP were warranted, then? I only played it in FLs pre-nerf, never Feast, but aside from Deathflare being a laughably efficient kill-steal I never really felt like I was "OP" - in fact, I lacked pretty much any reliable means of self-defense if I was caught off guard and my healers were vegetables.

I just seem to recall a lot of "nerf SMN, they're so OP" talk and yet I don't feel like they had anywhere near the power that MCH has at their peak during early Seal Rock days.

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

If by duel you mean 4v4 light party, then sure. Dueling 1v1 demonstrates nothing, unless it's just the burst itself you want to see. Even then, I don't have MCH leveled myself.

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Sad, just I never had issues with any MCH because they have no damage outside bursting.

Play a season of Feast, reach the highest bracket of players, then you'll learn the power of MCH. MCH has damage and utility outside of their burst window and they emit tons of pressure. Good ones that is, not the GARO players in FL/low bracket Feast games.

Dueling a healer with 9 lustrates is pointless. Game is balanced around 4v4, not 1v1.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

Kind of off-topic, but looking at this duscussion does make me wonder: do you guys think the SMN nerfs in PVP were warranted, then? I only played it in FLs pre-nerf, never Feast, but aside from Deathflare being a laughably efficient kill-steal I never really felt like I was "OP" - in fact, I lacked pretty much any reliable means of self-defense if I was caught off guard and my healers were vegetables.

I just seem to recall a lot of "nerf SMN, they're so OP" talk and yet I don't feel like they had anywhere near the power that MCH has at their peak during early Seal Rock days.

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The main thing placing SMN behind MCH right now is their lack of an MP Refresh for their Healer. Other then that, they sit in a good spot in terms of balance. Great burst, sustain, peels, utility. Majority of their burst is AoE, so hitting multiple people with it can be very devastating and potentially turn a game around. They can do mini-burst with Aetherflow/Dread, which is both powerful, versatile, and easy to combine with melee/tank burst. They also have the caster lb, which is a lot more potent than range lb.

The SMN nerfs were warranted, looking at how strong Good SMNs are now post-nerf, it was definitely needed. MCH has also received buffs due to general changes during the whole SMN nerfing. Such as GB distance penalty no longer reducing damage at melee range, allowing MCH to stun and burst at the same time for full damage. Also buffs to PvE that also largely effected their place in PvP, hypercharge being a big one. It needs a nerf of some kind, it has everything going for it, and barely any noticeable flaws.

Even after all of this though, MCH still isn't the best job in PvP, that spotlight belongs to Monk.

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Originally Posted by TiramisuMacaron

What, you cannot compare bard to mch. Don't even put them on the same level.

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They're the most comparable of any two jobs, because they're so similar. But your points are good (a screenshot of BTE's dmg, hitting someone with an unstated amount of medal stacks and who knows what else, is not). Bard really doesn't have much of anything going for it that mch doesn't do better, and mch does a lot of things bard cant. The only clear advantage bard has that comes to mind is an extra 20% crit through int release and S.shot (tho mch gets 15% on BTE through a trait). As for BTE, which was what started this thread, Barraged Emp Arrow does hit harder (3x230 potency vs 450 potency) so long as you're talking non-crits. And crit in pvp is rng bs which is an issue of its own and, imo, should be removed or just treated like determination. But yeah, emp arrow is cast whereas BTE is an oGCD, so there's that. Plus mch's answer to barrage is rapid fire, which obv isnt consumed when using bte, so that's a benefit as well.

Not sure what you mean about ballad vs bishop mp field. Both drain mp at the same rate. Battle voice would make the bards faster but that says more about bards other songs being useless whereas mch would be using HC for its physical vuln down. Maybe if nin ever gets fixed BV'd foe req could see some use xD You also forgot dismantle/rend mind.

In practice it doesnt really seem as bad as you seem to be making it out to be tho. Wasnt there recently a 12 or so page thread of people whining about bard burst?

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Originally Posted by KusoWat

Even after all of this though, MCH still isn't the best job in PvP, that spotlight belongs to Monk.

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So why does MCH need nerfs while MNK gets to simply wear the title of being "the best"? I know thats probably not what you're saying but it does seem like people get hella fixated

In practice MCH is significantly better than BRD.

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Originally Posted by Enlial

So why does MCH need nerfs while MNK gets to simply wear the title of being "the best"? I know thats probably not what you're saying but it does seem like people get hella fixated

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I'm aware MNK needs nerfs, everyone knows this, but we are talking about MCH right now in this thread. If not nerfs to MNK, NIN/DRG needs changes in PvP and more utility, which is what I'd prefer.