what I hope for 4.0 Battle System

This has nothing to do with 4.0 battle system. You are talking about fundamentally changing the entire game; which frankly is a horrible idea. The changing to the battle system involves ability bloat with the addition of new actions that classes will receive. We won't have the room on our hotbars, so they will be adjusting skills in a manner that useless skills be removed, and combining multiple skills into one that allows for rotations to be slightly easier to accomplish whilst doing fight mechanics.

This thread should be titled, "Changing FFXIV." That's exactly what you're talking about and it would ruin the game. So many ppl would just jump ship at that point. They need to build on what they've created, not re design it.

I want more involved mitigation and healing rotations. Active mitigation is a really good design for tanks such that your rotation would be centered around sustaining your defenses to keep you alive.
Same for healing, there's active mechanics for a healing rotation except maybe Aetherflow(which is fairly rudimentary).

I'd like the roles to have optimization have to do with their place in their party but I think it should be in an interesting way. Both tanks and healers have fairly rudimentary toolkits in regards to mitigation/healing mechanics. It is mostly just popping cooldowns at the right time for tanks and reactive healing for healers(proactive for sch/noct astrologian), without many sustained buffs or mechanics to keep up to fulfill their primary role.

All dps classes have a few buffs to monitor or active mechanics to continually be aware of. AST has cards but it would be nice if such mechanics were engrained in common rotation of healing(and tanking) skills as well.

Also, dump accuracy and make some more interesting stats. That'a not on my 4.0 wishlist because it would require more testing.

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Originally Posted by Garotte14

This has nothing to do with 4.0 battle system. You are talking about fundamentally changing the entire game; which frankly is a horrible idea. The changing to the battle system involves ability bloat with the addition of new actions that classes will receive. We won't have the room on our hotbars, so they will be adjusting skills in a manner that useless skills be removed, and combining multiple skills into one that allows for rotations to be slightly easier to accomplish whilst doing fight mechanics.

This thread should be titled, "Changing FFXIV." That's exactly what you're talking about and it would ruin the game. So many ppl would just jump ship at that point. They need to build on what they've created, not re design it.

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I like your prophetic ability to pronounce how the community at large will respond... without stating any evidence or statistics... we're just to take your word for it .... I would take you more seriously if you kept your OPINION grounded. YOU think my suggestions are a horrible idea and those that think like you WOULD leave the game. However this is the give-and-take all games embark when they develop a virtual universe. The more you develop, the more you hone in on your audience. Maybe this game isn't for ppl like me!! Or...maybe in the end its not for ppl like you....OR EVEN STILL.... not for ppl like either of the two of us. These are the things I would like to see in a 4.0 and beyond patch.

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Originally Posted by javid

I like your prophetic ability to pronounce how the community at large will respond... without stating any evidence or statistics... we're just to take your word for it .... I would take you more seriously if you kept your OPINION grounded.

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Or, you too could read the live letters. That's most of what you've quoted from Garotte—a summary of the information we actually have, which does not at this time include any promise of major combat or meta revisions—only a few mechanics changed (such as Enochian and BotD), ability trims and modifications, and the transition of the cross-class skills system into the role-based skill system. The only other part, Garotte's two line of reasons for how your changes would turn out has about as solid a warrant, conclusion, and desire as your OP. Note: you've yet to provide any evidence or statistics as to how changing the current meta would actually work, either... Now, if we required that of every new thread,little would be discussed at all (and that much probably only on the most technical topics among our least casual players), but don't you should cut equal slack to those responding, then?

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Originally Posted by javid

You oversimplified my ask. I have made plain I want the meta to shift from DPS focus to "role-like gimmicks and DPS". Also I asked for nerf to tank buffs and heals or increase in dmg and healer specific mechanics. It's in the OP.

And actually the way I have insisted would require more DPS from dps jobs if the checks were left as is.

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I mentioned those, and simply pointed out why that's doesn't need a direct meta change. You just need to develop fights with more gimmicks (or, really, just to add on additional utility and indirect output skills come levels 61-70). You don't need this kind of rebalancing. And you have yet to mention a single concrete extent of where what you're hoping for will actually end up. But what you have listed isn't even necessarily a nerf, only something that will widen the gap between tanks and non-tanks as the expansion progresses:

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Originally Posted by javid

TANK:
pld, war, drk - roles that are forced to take dmg, hold aggro & mitigate party dmg PRIMARILY. I want higher dmg on tanks forcing us to use optimal mitigation sequences. I want all mitigations to be influenced by stats for example no longer flat 20% for Inner Beast, but instead a 15% base mitigation that increases with determination and can CRIT! Same with all other mitigations (Rampart, shadowskin, foresight, etc, etc). I want there to be 3 types of tanks: Parry/DET, DET/CRIT, & Parry/CRIT.

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So where will it be at the end of the expansion? 20% 25% 35%? And what the heck am I going to do with a 30-70% "critical" mitigation? That might not be an issue, but then, why?

It would also mean that the difference between tanks and non-tanks is relatively small early expansion and potentially vast late in the expansion, possibly causing multiple "metas" over the transition. Would that be intended?

And if you do want the removal of tank heals as well, then does that really mean you want them to be dependent on percentile damage alone? Because that runs the same risk of the tank being removed in content that would have little damage taken, unless you specifically do not make content that has little damage taken, whatever the (non-tanks') gear level.

If you do in fact want:

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Originally Posted by javid

HEALER:
ast, whm, sch - roles that are forced to constantly heal, regen, cure negative status effects PRIMARILY. I want Healers that have much weaker heals or party takes higher dmg than the nominal HPS. I want more status effects during fights that require healer attention (esuna, adlo, etc). I actually want ast to lose its offensive buffs….no balance or arrow. I want offensive buffs left to the support roles.

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Then how would these fights be rebalanced, and what does AST then have left to balance it against WHM and SCH without being 95% a carbon copy?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Or, you too could read the live letters. That's most of what you've quoted from Garotte—a summary of the information we actually have, which does not at this time include any promise of major combat or meta revisions—only a few mechanics changed (such as Enochian and BotD), ability trims and modifications, and the transition of the cross-class skills system into the role-based skill system. The only other part, Garotte's two line of reasons for how your changes would turn out has about as solid a warrant, conclusion, and desire as your OP. Note: you've yet to provide any evidence or statistics as to how changing the current meta would actually work, either... Now, if we required that of every new thread,little would be discussed at all (and that much probably only on the most technical topics among our least casual players), but don't you should cut equal slack to those responding, then?

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Again you're all over the place... use the context to make better sense of what I've said.

"I like your prophetic ability ....pronounce how the community at large will RESPOND" how does this parallel with a thread I created stating "what I [JAVID] hopes for in 4.0 .." ?? I don't need any statistic or evidence to say what I would want to see in 4.0. your logic doesn't hold together guy... I'm convince now you're just looking for something to argue about....

He proclaimed how the community would react to a changes if they were done the way I suggested...and I created a thread specifically detailing my PERSONAL reaction and desires for the game?? Again how did you possibly equate the two???

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I mentioned those, and simply pointed out why that's doesn't need a direct meta change. You just need to develop fights with more gimmicks (or, really, just to add on additional utility and indirect output skills come levels 61-70). You don't need this kind of rebalancing. And you have yet to mention a single concrete extent of where what you're hoping for will actually end up. But what you have listed isn't even necessarily a nerf, only something that will widen the gap between tanks and non-tanks as the expansion progresses:



So where will it be at the end of the expansion? 20% 25% 35%? And what the heck am I going to do with a 30-70% "critical" mitigation? That might not be an issue, but then, why?

It would also mean that the difference between tanks and non-tanks is relatively small early expansion and potentially vast late in the expansion, possibly causing multiple "metas" over the transition. Would that be intended?

And if you do want the removal of tank heals as well, then does that really mean you want them to be dependent on percentile damage alone? Because that runs the same risk of the tank being removed in content that would have little damage taken, unless you specifically do not make content that has little damage taken, whatever the (non-tanks') gear level.

If you do in fact want:


Then how would these fights be rebalanced, and what does AST then have left to balance it against WHM and SCH without being 95% a carbon copy?

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Again I see you like to argue... As I am not part of the design team for FFXIV and I'm certain thus far the developers have utilize the forum for player feedback and desires to then workout the details of their game. I don't need to have all the balances worked out on this thread in order state what I want to see in the game.

The developers will attempt to balance their game meanwhile attempting to incorporate ideas the community brings forth.

So when I said I'd like mitigation to be stat dependent, I don't need to layout all the details.

"And you have yet to mention a single concrete extent of where what you're hoping for will actually end up."
...again I don't understand what you're saying. I hope you're not asking which patch I'd like to see these changes I suggested appear (how about the 4.0 that I hint at in the title?).

Moreover.....I get it if you completely disagree with all my suggestions and think its "ASS BACKWARDS/AWFUL SHIT THAT SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN TO THIS GAME!! EVER!!!" That's cool... but why are you arguing with me as if you're gonna change my mind on what I've listed that I want to see?? Isn't the title "what I [JAVID] hope..."??

I suspect it would be hard to make things so that every class is mostly only doing their jobs and has 100% uptime given a range of gear levels one can go into a fight with. DPS is something tanks and healers do during thier downtime when they aren't doing thier primary job (or at least healers, I don't tank, but it seems higher DPS is a consequence of doing their job efficiently). If you are stronger than necessary for the fight, either job will have downtime from healing and surviving, so they can push a little damage. If your stats are too low, then you're at best bleeding health less slowly than the Enemy, worst, you're losing the fight. That's a pretty fine knife's edge to balance your stats on, which becomes untenable when you don't have a specific set of stats for each fight.

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Originally Posted by javid

I like your prophetic ability to pronounce how the community at large will respond... without stating any evidence or statistics... we're just to take your word for it .... I would take you more seriously if you kept your OPINION grounded. YOU think my suggestions are a horrible idea and those that think like you WOULD leave the game. However this is the give-and-take all games embark when they develop a virtual universe. The more you develop, the more you hone in on your audience. Maybe this game isn't for ppl like me!! Or...maybe in the end its not for ppl like you....OR EVEN STILL.... not for ppl like either of the two of us. These are the things I would like to see in a 4.0 and beyond patch.

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There is no prophetic ability. There is no argument. There is no debate. What you are suggesting is actually talking about creating an entirely different game. If that's the type of game you want to play, there is nothing wrong with that, but that's just not going to happen here. I'm just telling you how foolish it is to come to a forum of a game and suggest they completely change the game to your liking. When there are already hundreds of thousands who enjoy it the way it is. Yes, most of the player base would unsub because the game would morph into something they didn't sub for.

If your end goal is to change the battle system which requires each role to focus solely on their role, then guess what that would mean. This game's difficulty would skyrocket. If the damage going out in raid on Day 1 was so extreme that it required tanks to use massive amounts of mitigation in tank stance, doing little-to-no DPS at all, and Healers having to spam heals for the entire fight that they don't even have a chance to throw up even a DoT, then that's the first step. Now what do you do when players get better gear? Healing and tanking requirement is reduced and players are left with a lot of time and opportunity to do more damage. So the only way to combat that is so that the damage going out is so severe even in max level gear for that tier. Which then means, it would take months for anyone to even clear a raid because they'd be gear-gated for months.

The issue is, you aren't talking about what you'd like to see in this game. You are really saying you'd like to play a game that works the way you want it to, which just isn't going to happen in this game.

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Originally Posted by Garotte14

There is no prophetic ability. There is no argument. There is no debate. What you are suggesting is actually talking about creating an entirely different game. If that's the type of game you want to play, there is nothing wrong with that, but that's just not going to happen here. I'm just telling you how foolish it is to come to a forum of a game and suggest they completely change the game to your liking. When there are already hundreds of thousands who enjoy it the way it is. Yes, most of the player base would unsub because the game would morph into something they didn't sub for.

If your end goal is to change the battle system which requires each role to focus solely on their role, then guess what that would mean. This game's difficulty would skyrocket. If the damage going out in raid on Day 1 was so extreme that it required tanks to use massive amounts of mitigation in tank stance, doing little-to-no DPS at all, and Healers having to spam heals for the entire fight that they don't even have a chance to throw up even a DoT, then that's the first step. Now what do you do when players get better gear? Healing and tanking requirement is reduced and players are left with a lot of time and opportunity to do more damage. So the only way to combat that is so that the damage going out is so severe even in max level gear for that tier. Which then means, it would take months for anyone to even clear a raid because they'd be gear-gated for months.

The issue is, you aren't talking about what you'd like to see in this game. You are really saying you'd like to play a game that works the way you want it to, which just isn't going to happen in this game.

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you like the like last just like to argue...and created your own strawman to beat up against.... where in my OP do you see "I want ROLES to be the SOLE purpose of non 'classic' DPS focus "??? I suggest for a shifted..and I've suggested that several times now going bk and forth with the last guy..which you haven't been paying attention obviously b/c at the end of the day he and I (though we disagree fundamentally ) we both understood the changes I've suggested are actually already mostly in play (with the exception of CD nerfs & AST losing Balance and Arrow cards).

But since you're again won't go bk and re-read the OP. I'll highlight some of the major points:

"SHIFT FROM HYBRID DPS TO MORE ROLES"
-This can be done by making the tankbuster/swaps mandatory thru avg dmg intake going up (DOESN'T MEAN THE BURST NEEDS TO BE HIGHER NECESSARILY).
-More gimmicks that split the tasks fo the party up usually by role like they've already implemented in several several raids over the past years (t7 extreme, t10, A1S, A6S, etc. )
-And officially shifting BRD, MCH (, and hopefully RDM) into Support roles- b/c as is!!!!! YOU CANNN NOTTTT RUUNN A SERIOUS RAID GROUP WITHOUT ONE (outside being majorly over-geared or some very odd setup that takes advantage of specific raid mechs).

Every single Enfeebling magic I've mentioned are ALREADY IN GAME (paralyze, stun, bind, heavy, confusion,blind, evasion down, all types of resistance downs, etc. ). If the designers continue to decide to restrict the number of viable enfeebling skills to a select few (typically heavy, stun some times and most the resistance downs), that's their prerogative, however like so they could choose to reintroduce more if not all the enfeebling skills back into the end game!!

So no...it's not a completely different game... no need to be insulting to hope to get your point across but like before....you've simply not understood what I have been suggesting..... The game meta has shifted several times since 1.0 to 2.0 to 3.0 ....so it can again shift in 4.0 ..... so I'll tell you like the last guy. I'm completely fine with you thinking all my ideas are STUPID!!! But I'll still have them and tell others about them.