Removal of the cross class system announced.

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Originally Posted by Madrone

Its going to take more to fix ACN's issues, like removal of classes and rebuilding SCH and SMN as jobs.

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I don't think it would be too hard.
They could make that the main evolution of arcanist is summoner. Then at lv30 you have access to a new entire job, the scholar.
By simply updating the introduction quest to the job, they could entirely remove the arcanistlv30 requirement.

It would also be nice if new player could acess machinist, astro and DKN before reaching HW too.

This is fine, it means you don't need to muck about with other roles to get your toolbox, and that similar skills across classes can become one, but you'll still have 5 (or maybe 6) role skills on your hotbar/controller, so it does nothing to address button bloat problem itself.

Since stoneskin is a healer skill, Paladin might lose it. I hope overpower and unleash are added to the pool as skill options. I also hope that paladins native provoke is replaced with either a self heal or a viable aoe.

You know, they might give the cross-class for tanks some sort of shield cooldown based off current health, just to make up for losing stoneskin. And make it viable for tanks, as opposed to a paladin's gimmick.

Maybe not even make it a cooldown, just a specific amount of MP taken away. That could get OP.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

Since stoneskin is a healer skill, Paladin might lose it. I hope overpower and unleash are added to the pool as skill options. I also hope that paladins native provoke is replaced with either a self heal or a viable aoe.

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>needing OP
>needing Unleash

You have Flash, is that not good enough? That thing does a NUMBER on aggro. Besides, Overpower and Unleash would not be okay on a Paladin.

That'd mean that PLDs could DPS! And we all know that WAR is the only DPS Job classified as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Tactical

>needing OP
>needing Unleash

You have Flash, is that not good enough? That thing does a NUMBER on aggro. Besides, Overpower and Unleash would not be okay on a Paladin.

That'd mean that PLDs could DPS! And we all know that WAR is the only DPS Job classified as a tank.

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mmm I've got no qualms with the threat generated by Flash.

I think I'd be able to use the blinding effect of paladins flash more strategically If I wasn't making things immune at the start of a pull. Also I'd like to contribute more to aoe damage. Things get better at higher levels when I can tag everything with goring blade and circle of scorn, but until then I feel like I'd be contributing more if I had Overpower or Unleash in AOE situations.

People say that they should make flash into a damaging move but I like being able to flash sleeping or bound mobs without freeing them from the negative status.

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Originally Posted by Tactical

You have Flash, is that not good enough? That thing does a NUMBER on aggro. Besides, Overpower and Unleash would not be okay on a Paladin.

That'd mean that PLDs could DPS! And we all know that WAR is the only DPS Job classified as a tank.

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It isn't even the comparison to WAR that people have an issue with when it comes to DPS, its the comparison to DRK. A recent example is that I'm currently trying to clear Zurvan EX as a PLD, and the add phase is mind numbing. There are lots of adds and the objective is to AOE them down while avoiding mechanics, which is terrible for a PLD. I already have hate, and my objective is to stand around occassionally popping CoS when it is up, and flash when I feel i might need more hate (or if im truly that bored), and the only alternative is to resort to single targeting one of the large group of mobs. Compare that to DRK who gets abyssal drain, and salted earth (not including unleash which is a straight up better flash) and procs for blood price so they can keep AOEing without fear of running out of MP. So I would say no, flash is not good enough.

WAR is it's own beast, and there are plenty of other debates and grievances when it comes to the WAR meta, but DRK and PLD are in direct competition, and are supposed to fill the same spot.

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Originally Posted by Ragology

Since stoneskin is a healer skill, Paladin might lose it. I hope overpower and unleash are added to the pool as skill options. I also hope that paladins native provoke is replaced with either a self heal or a viable aoe.

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I really hope PLD gets something good out of this deal because it essentially carries the majority of the tank cross class pool. While WAR might lose one or two skills (and DRK loses none), PLD has the potential to lose 3 or 4 skills (as part of the base PLD toolkit), on top of the healing skills which diversify its gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Zojha

Instead of picking 5 cross-class skills, we'll now pick 5 cross-role skills in more or less the same interface.

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Actually, I think the change will be bigger than that. Yoshi-P mentionned, as an "example", that it's useless to have severals tanks having a "-20% damage taken/1m30 CD/20s duration" skill.
So, maybe Rampart and Shadowskin will be removed from PLD and DRK skilltrees and put into the Tank skills. It opens up a new slot for PLD and DRK, but can also make Rampart available for WAR, who will need to be adjusted accordingly.
Technically, they could decide to make a universal enmity combo too, and balance the potency gap between job-restricted skills.

As a sidenote, what it could bring in the end is the total removal of classes, and thus, potentially removing the weapon restriction.
Think about it, if your job is determined by the Crystal you equip, why not allow a PLD to use a greatsword or a Ninja to use two sword with a real Dual Wield ?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I really hope PLD gets something good out of this deal because it essentially carries the majority of the tank cross class pool. While WAR might lose one or two skills (and DRK loses none), PLD has the potential to lose 3 or 4 skills (as part of the base PLD toolkit), on top of the healing skills which diversify its gameplay.

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I think that PLD will gain the most of it. Considering he is the "basic" tank, Tank skills will probably be taken more from him, opening severals slots for new skills.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Actually, I think the change will be bigger than that. Yoshi-P mentionned, as an "example", that it's useless to have severals tanks having a "-20% damage taken/1m30 CD/20s duration" skill.
So, maybe Rampart and Shadowskin will be removed from PLD and DRK skilltrees and put into the Tank skills. It opens up a new slot for PLD and DRK, but can also make Rampart available for WAR, who will need to be adjusted accordingly.

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Even where two skills are clones of each other—and I'm not saying that's okay—I'd much rather have Shadowskin on my edgy DRK job than Rampart, and would rather not have it on my Paladin, merely in terms of name and appearance. Moreover, moving it to a broad "tank" skill does nothing for customization or button-bloat. It'd still be a required choice; you'd just no longer have aesthetic fitting for your particular job, nor the ability to increase or decrease its strength in order to better shape its proportionate value against your other job skills and would remove yet another axis of balancing, in turn forcing those other job skills to be even more like one another. That is not a good kind of "simplification".

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Technically, they could decide to make a universal enmity combo too, and balance the potency gap between job-restricted skills.

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Making a universal enmity combo does not save space. It replaces three more unique slots with 3 absolutely homogenized ones that force the remaining skills to then also be more homogenized. It tears apart each tank's previous rotational priorities, where they previously all varied immensely. I don't understand why you would think that would be, in any way, a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

As a sidenote, what it could bring in the end is the total removal of classes, and thus, potentially removing the weapon restriction.
Think about it, if your job is determined by the Crystal you equip, why not allow a PLD to use a greatsword or a Ninja to use two sword with a real Dual Wield?

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If something tends to remove, remove, remove, with seemingly no intent of adding something in its place... it usually adds nothing in its place.

And why would you want this? Why would you want a job with shield-dependent skills like Bulwark and Shelltron and "Shield" Lob and "Shield" Bash to take on a Greatsword? Do you really think SE would be willing to create new, fitting animations, let alone names or effects, for each of those modified skills, after they'd apparently just removed all variance among (near-) identical skills?

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Originally Posted by Tactical

You have Flash, is that not good enough? That thing does a NUMBER on aggro. Besides, Overpower and Unleash would not be okay on a Paladin.

That'd mean that PLDs could DPS! And we all know that WAR is the only DPS Job classified as a tank.

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There's probably a good reason Flash was never originally designed to be an AoE filler. Originally, Gladiator had physical AoEs, same as Marauder, and these remained, distinct, even after the removal of most cross-class skills in 1.18. (Flash was merely a ranged enmity nuke, cross-classable.)

Would it really be so wrong for Gladiator to take up a physical, TP-based AoE, such as Circle Slash or Brandish, whether be that be with some unique component?

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Originally Posted by Ragology

mmm I've got no qualms with the threat generated by Flash.

I think I'd be able to use the blinding effect of paladins flash more strategically If I wasn't making things immune at the start of a pull. Also I'd like to contribute more to aoe damage. Things get better at higher levels when I can tag everything with goring blade and circle of scorn, but until then I feel like I'd be contributing more if I had Overpower or Unleash in AOE situations.

People say that they should make flash into a damaging move but I like being able to flash sleeping or bound mobs without freeing them from the negative status.

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Hum... a Flash that makes things less likely to dodge your attacks (so you don't miss Rage of Halone) would be nice, but yeah, Blinding enemies tends to be way less effective. (SE why you no remove vulnerability on this ;_;)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There's probably a good reason Flash was never originally designed to be an AoE filler. Originally, Gladiator had physical AoEs, same as Marauder, and these remained, distinct, even after the removal of most cross-class skills in 1.18. (Flash was merely a ranged enmity nuke, cross-classable.)

Would it really be so wrong for Gladiator to take up a physical, TP-based AoE, such as Circle Slash or Brandish, whether be that be with some unique component?

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In my nonexistent defense, that last part was a bit of a shitpost, but yeah, Gladiator having something worthwhile, in terms of crowd control, would be nice.

Maybe for every target Flash hits, chance for Circle of Scorn's CD reduces by 10 seconds/ends CD? Nah, sounds pretty bust. But where my Rive @ from the Axe-wielding Training Partner