Opening as a Dark Knight?

The Reason of too manyPoVs of DRK/PLD pulling is becaus People, well the most of them, still have the silly mindset of "I am the PLD/DRK, i am the MT here!"

There is NO real MT and NO real OT imo, all tanks are when played correctly viable in both postitions.

The only reason i can imagine why most people on a11S have their DRK/PLD pull is becaus of the add, but this will change once more People are BiS or Close to that/having more gear caus with enough DPS u can Skip the first E.D.D. and then it is 100% better to have the WAR to do the Pull for Overall more Raid DPS.

Thanks for all the replies thus far!

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Originally Posted by RamothElggur

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Yeah, I mean I simply use the terms to indicate whether one tank is tanking at the moment or not. I've found it rather silly to assign one tank to be MT and the other to be OT due to tank swapping. If we really had a MT and an OT, then mechanically the OT would just be a tanky DPS.

I had a pretty strong feeling that the Unchained opener was optimal, but I didn't really have any math or any reasoning behind it. It just felt right after thinking about tank openers. However, it seems like our group still intends on having me start the pull off, which is honestly a little frustrating since in my opinion, pulling as a Drk feels pretty bad and there is no point. We'll see how it turns out I guess since there's no actual harm in trying..

That being said, if one were to do the tank swap, I'm curious when best it'd be done in A11S if only because the E.D.D. spawns relatively early, doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by Amagiri

That being said, if one were to do the tank swap, I'm curious when best it'd be done in A11S if only because the E.D.D. spawns relatively early, doesn't it?

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I don't know what is the most optimal way, but in my group the WAR pulls, I tank the EDD as DRK and take over when it's dead. In a similar vein, after Eternal Darkness our WAR takes over again in order to abuse Holmgang on the double tank cleave, which leaves the EDD to me again, and I take over after it's dead. Same repeats in the last phase, WAR takes over just before Propeller Wind and eats cleave before EDD with Holmgang. I don't take over after the EDD there anymore because the boss is almost dead.

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

I don't know what is the most optimal way, but in my group the WAR pulls, I tank the EDD as DRK and take over when it's dead. In a similar vein, after Eternal Darkness our WAR takes over again in order to abuse Holmgang on the double tank cleave, which leaves the EDD to me again, and I take over after it's dead. Same repeats in the last phase, WAR takes over just before Propeller Wind and eats cleave before EDD with Holmgang. I don't take over after the EDD there anymore because the boss is almost dead.

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If your DPS is enough, you can skip 1st Optical Sight straight to EDD. AFAIK this is easier to achieve if WAR pulls first, this is also useful for later because you want to get sub 61% to skip the whole Lapis Lazuli phase. You want to push Limit Cut asap or boss will run away if you get 63% before sword which happens quite a lot for my team because we still have me pulling that fight and we have to actually stop dps a bit to ensure we get the skip.

The logic behind trying to push boss asap to cast Limit Cut is because the more you let boss casts Optical Sight, the more dps you can output which leads to the 63% jump straight after the Limit Cut, normally jumping before boss casts the left/right sword.

Link: https://youtu.be/bYjYswK60S8

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

boss will run away if you get 63% before sword

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First world problem lol, the only few times my group managed to skip lapis properly were when one of the dps died.

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Originally Posted by SyzzleSpark

If you can pull it off, you can top the Unchained opener if you pull out of Grit, but only if you have a NIN that is willing to Shadewalker you at least twice. You may have to Powerslash a few extra times but that loss is paltry compared to having Grit on.

If you have no NIN or your healers don't like the idea, then yeah I'd default to the Unchained opener. Or your WAR could just pull in Deliverance with Shadewalker since BB is part of their DPS rotation.

Basically you take a big loss pulling in Grit, your WAR takes a small loss Unchained pulling, and you both take almost no loss at all with a Gritless pull. You'll just need an industrious NIN to pick up that slack with Shadewalker and possibly Smokescreen.

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To be honest, while people are against it, I use Dark Arts + Power Slash, then continue on my way, rather than a couple of Power Slash spams.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

To be honest, while people are against it, I use Dark Arts + Power Slash, then continue on my way, rather than a couple of Power Slash spams.

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This caught my interest. The consensus is that DAPS isn't particularly useful, but I've never sat down and figured out what the trade-off actually was. If we compare the amount of enmity generated by a combo over Delirium to the potency loss (again, compared to Delirium), we should be able to measure its efficiency.

Grit: 2.7x
SpS: 770 enmity potency (3.5x)
PS: 1650 enmity potency (5.5x)
DAPS: 1950 enmity potency (6.5x)

Already you can see that DAPS isn't a great deal, as you're spending one DA usage to gain 300 enmity potency. This becomes slightly better in Grit, where you spend one DA usage to gain 810 enmity potency.

There are two costs for using PS. One is the potency loss, and the other is the MP loss from a missed Siphon Strike, as well as potentially the cost of one DA usage. One DA is equal to two Siphon Strikes, so PS costs 1 SS, and DAPS costs 3 SS. One DA usage is equal to 120 potency (DASE over Del), so these are 60 and 180 potency losses, respectively.

Note: These are net potency values, made in comparison to the potency and enmity generated from the Delirium combo.

PS:
Net Cost: 70/combo
Net Enmity Gain: 1890/combo
27 enmity per potency lost

DAPS:
Net Cost: 190/combo
Net Enmity Gain: 2150/combo
11 enmity per potency lost

Grit + PS:
Net Cost: 204/combo
Net Enmity Gain: 6259/combo
30 enmity per potency lost

Grit + DAPS:
Net Cost: 324/combo
Net Enmity Gain: 7069/combo
22 enmity per potency lost

The short of it is DAPS is always less efficient than PS, both with and without Grit. Enmity combos are always more efficient when performed in Grit. DAPS would have a role in the opener if the extra 800 enmity potency prevented a second PS combo, but if you need more than one combo, chances are that you'll need to progress to a second full PS anyways. Unfortunately, proceeding to a second combo has some pretty poor synergy with other jobs' opening raid buffs, so it ends up being a sizeable dps loss.

The cost of a missed GCD on DRK varies between 150 and 280 (227 on average). If you have to turn on Grit to do PS or DAPS, the efficiency drops to 15 enmity per potency lost and 11 enmity per potency lost, respectively. So turning Grit back on just to build more enmity isn't particularly efficient. Always better to get the enmity correct at the start.

Most of this is probably common sense, but that's the math.