He's not wrong though.Quote:
Originally Posted by FreeKingStefan
I've seen these forums seesaw from "queue times are too long! The match-making needs to be changed!" to "We're getting paired with newbs! The match-making needs to be changed!" and then back again.
Not to say there probably aren't other solutions that satisfy both, but it's been funny to watch.
A no new players feast queue?
Printable View
-
10-27-2016, 02:08 PMCidel
-
10-27-2016, 02:14 PMAvalon1101I get what you meanQuote:
Originally Posted by Februs
But I don't think they'll solve the problems, most likely they'll just replace the old ones with updates as usual
That's why I said a new mode -
10-27-2016, 04:45 PMFebrusSo ... the hypothetical excuse you're going for those people not queuing is that it's beneath them to play with lower ranked or weaker players, yet MY use of the word toxic is skewed? LOL. Sure ... let's go with that ... lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanishi
I already know how craptastic the matchmaking system is. I've been as high as 1105 in the primal rankings before going on a losing streak which landed me somewhere in the 800's, and I can't seem to go a single night of queues without getting at least a handful of new or unranked players. You're preaching to the choir when you talk about how terrible the matchmaking is ... but that's doesn't mean that there's no competition. There might not be in Aether, because no one plays, but Primal is far more active. People are still fighting to climb the ladder. The only time there's NO competition is when the queue is dead, which only happens when people stop queuing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanishi
Yeah, I've heard this one before. Go play with the top ten and you'll see. Well, been there; done that. I've played a ton of matches with the top ten on Primal, as I'm sure most people have. It's not exactly a big community. The top 10 on Primal are mostly excellent players. I have nothing but respect for them, especially the ones I've seen slugging it out to get there ... but so what? The top 10 in Primal have a significantly higher number of total matches than those on Aether and some of them are STILL active. I've also lost just as many matches with them as I've won, so I'm not seeing your point here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanishi
As for the Aether top 10 ... are they supposed to be intimidating? I'd love to play against them. Sadly, there's no cross-data centre play ... and given their total matches, it doesn't seem likely that I'd even see them if there was. I'm more than willing to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to their skill. I'm sure they're all quite good, but if I had to chose between the top 10 of Primal and the top 10 of Aether, then there's no contest. I'd place my money on the ones who play regularly, not the ones who slide by on an early lead. -
10-27-2016, 08:54 PMZojhaThat's not entirely correct - The buzzword "Toxic" originally meant players that behave negatively to the point other people would be so infuriated/frustrated by them that they start behaving negatively themselves in turn, causing a chain reaction in which many people simply stop playing because they don't want to deal with that kind of behaviour - like a toxin that spreads through the veins and kills cells.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanishi
It has since been broadened to apply to mechanics and systems with a similar effect as well, but if you use it that way, you'll quickly find that the chance to fail/not win as such is "toxic" - and that's not even accounting for rewards based on win/loss. On the one hand, an interesting revelation, on the other, it's got bad implications for competitions as a whole.
I would argue there aren't. All they can do is to optimize matchmaking so that "if" there actually are 2 tanks, Melees, Ranged and Healers of similar rating in the queue, they'll play against each other. But if there aren't, SE can't conjure up players, much less skilled ones - it's either wait or make a match with what is there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
And with strict matchmaking you run into these funny situations where one guy is getting pop after pop while you've been in the exact same queue for over an hour with nothing simply because the Matchmaker can find many matches for his skill level but none for yours. And then the matchmaker finally DOES make your game and one of the guys in your team has got a bad day and you lose by a landslide anyway. Fun! -
10-28-2016, 12:15 AMNakanishi
Not having fun with extreme gaps in skill is a legitimate reason to not have a desire to play. The logic works both ways in that people generally don't have fun getting crushed. Your interpretation of what I'm saying is very off. Not once did I imply that lower skilled players are "beneath" me (in Top 10). Lol. Stop trying to flip my words to make your own point.
--
There is literally no real competition in solo queue, you're free to continue to contest that fact. Solo queue is too heavily influenced by RNG to be considered competitive. Rarely does matchmaking ever make completely balanced games. Even while solo queue was active it wasn't competition lol.
And, Rank 1 should never be paired with a brand new player(s).
--
Oh, you're back to how you managed to beat the top 10 on primal. You should provide the party make-up of these victories your're achieving so that we can see if it was rng or skill that determined the results. This game failed attempt in balancing teams is likely the only reason you're "even" against your Top 10.
Matches played certainly doesn't determine skill, I hope you weren't implying that was the case lol. We have someone who has played nearly 2k matches this season and they spent the last 3 months teetering in and out of top 100. Guess where they are now. Also, there is thing called "Custom Matches" or "Light Party Queue" (real tests of skill) where us on Aether, atleast on Balmung, like to get our PvP fix in. A place where we can play with reliable teammates against team(s) of comparable levels to actually find enjoyment in PvP. Needless to say, fighting players of exceptional gaps in skill is not fun, at all.
I'd be down for cross-datacenter pvp. Your team vs my team. It would be some uhh..."interesting" results lol.
I'm sure you're not ready for Aether vs Primal comparisons, quite frankly you have no weight in that regard.
That reminds me, being as though you obviously didn't do your research, Aether's top 10 has changed a lot after the initial few weeks into the season. Only 2 remaining from the first push. Current top 1 established his position well into the season. The rest of the slots fluctuated until 3.4.
Slide by on an early lead he says lol. -
10-28-2016, 01:08 AMFreeKingStefanThere have been suggestions made to satisfy both, since both problems stem from poor system implementation and less so player actions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cidel
What is more interesting is how unconstructive these comments are of "lol such flip flop on what they want omg!" Because not only are they different people voicing different opinions, but they are also (often) constructive in that they are providing feedback on a system. It's ok to say something is "too cold" after it's been "too hot" if the end goal is to get it "just right." -
10-28-2016, 04:53 AMFebrusWhat a joke lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanishi
Firstly, I'm painfully aware of just how little the Aether rankings move, because my browser insists on opening up the Aether rankings every time I log into the rankings page (seriously no idea why, and I can't seem to fix it). You can claim they've "changed a lot" all you want, but you're not fooling anyone. You're also not going to be able to dispute how pathetically inactive your server is. We can see your total matches clear as day. If we consider the total duration of the season, then most of you have barely played a match a night, and that's being generous enough to assume that those matches were spread out. It's far more likely that the bulk of them were early in the season, when it was safe to queue.
Secondly, I don't consider light party queue for anything, because it's the easiest format for match-fixing. We've seen a ridiculous number of posts complaining about unfair boosting in the forums, a lot of which came out of Aether, so why would I ever take that mode seriously? I'm not going to point any fingers at anyone (especially from another DC in which I have no first hand evidence), but I'm also not going to assume that it's in any way an accurate scale for skill when there's no way to know which matches, if any, are actually on the level. For all I know those matches are all on the up and up ... or they all could be totally fixed and a load of bunk.
Thirdly, the fact that you're even considering RNG over skill as a deciding factor is enough for me to not take you seriously. Don't get me wrong. I totally agree that luck plays a huge part in this, but you have to work with what you're given. The top 10 who have remained active in Primal have stayed there because they work their asses off to carry the scrubs they get the shaft with instead of crying over unfair matchmaking. You should consider that before you start making baseless boasts about anyone not being "ready" for Aether vs Primal comparisons. You're not intimidating anyone. You're just making us laugh. Honestly, I would love to see Cross DC play just for the sake of a more active queue line, but now I'd be more than curious to see just how "interesting" those results got lol.
Now, putting aside the pissing contest for a minute, I do agree with one thing you've said:No matter what our disagreements, I don't think either of us are going to argue that SE needs to fix the matchmaking, or at the very least ensure that the point reduction for having new or unranked players is substantially reduced (if not eliminated). Right now, the risks of playing with new players are miles and miles beyond the potential reward. It should be the other way around. In my case, I also believe that a minor rank decay should be implemented, because if someone isn't willing to fight for their rank, then they really don't deserve it. These two things should go hand in hand, though. I wouldn't take one without the other.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakanishi
-
10-28-2016, 05:11 AMFebrusAgreed. The limited player base within each skill tier makes it impossible to actually "fix" the matchmaking, but it's not outside the realm of possibility for SE to at least mitigate the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zojha
Right now, the matchmaking is supposed to look for suitably matched players first before branching out to other tiers, but we all know that, unfortunately, the system is failing. Some debugging is probably in order. They could also re-implement a hard cap within certain rank tiers to ensure that matchmaking doesn't stretch itself too far when trying to make teams. Platinum players, for example, should not necessarily be forced into a match of almost all unranked or bronze just to "balance" the team. No matter how good they are, they can only carry so much weight.
Another, much simpler, option is to just re-evaluate the point scaling for wins/losses with certain ranks. If you have a totally new and untested player on your team, then anyone silver ranked or above should suffer no penalty for a loss. They should also stand to win a bonus of some kind (perhaps even just extra wolf marks or gil) if they actually manage to win that match (which is unlikely). That way, even if top-tier players are slotted into an unwinable situation, at least they don't have to fear taking a hit to their rank. They'd still be encouraged to at least try and win, but they'd also not be punished just for queuing.
Lastly, ranking decay. This should have been a thing at the start of season 2, because people were complaining about it way back at the end of season 1. A rank decay, no matter how minor, should be in effect to improve queue times. The matchmaking system is the only reason not to have it, because top-end players stand to lose more than they gain with the way things are currently. However, if either of the above two changes were made, then having a rank decay would not be a problem. -
10-28-2016, 06:27 AMNakanishiUnfortunately, i don't have the ability to make the blind see, I apologize for your disability. Just because you actively choose to limit what is being changed doesn't mean it isn't happening. It's actually a lot safer to queue later in the season compared to early on mind you. Also, we are active in Custom Matches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs
Except that Light Party is the only format in this game that can accurately assess skill in a PvP mode that is entirely based on team coordination. Carry power can only determine so much. I also mentioned Custom Matches, which being as though you're just a solo queue hero you probably never tried it.Quote:
Secondly, I don't consider light party queue for anything, because it's the easiest format for match-fixing. We've seen a ridiculous number of posts complaining about unfair boosting in the forums, a lot of which came out of Aether, so why would I ever take that mode seriously? I'm not going to point any fingers at anyone (especially from another DC in which I have no first hand evidence), but I'm also not going to assume that it's in any way an accurate scale for skill when there's no way to know which matches, if any, are actually on the level. For all I know those matches are all on the up and up ... or they all could be totally fixed and a load of bunk.
RNG shouldn't be a given obstacle, its the big factor as to why despite people playing hundreds of matches, they barely move at all. Succumbing to barely over 50% winrates because RNG is weighed against you, not because you are playing with equally skilled players. Matches played literally determines nothing, and in some cases just means that you only climbed due to playing so much over individual skill. The top 10 remained top 10 because no one else was or is good/lucky enough to take their spot, its not like queues just die when 1 or 2 people stop queuing, other players simply don't have the same carry power. If anything, when the top people stop queuing, it should be easier for the people below them to topple them since they don't have to fight them.Quote:
Thirdly, the fact that you're even considering RNG over skill as a deciding factor is enough for me to not take you seriously. Don't get me wrong. I totally agree that luck plays a huge part in this, but you have to work with what you're given. The top 10 who have remained active in Primal have stayed there because they work their asses off to carry the scrubs they get the shaft with instead of crying over unfair matchmaking. You should consider that before you start making baseless boasts about anyone not being "ready" for Aether vs Primal comparisons. You're not intimidating anyone. You're just making us laugh. Honestly, I would love to see Cross DC play just for the sake of a more active queue line, but now I'd be more than curious to see just how "interesting" those results got lol.
It's really not that hard to climb, tbh you generally at this point belong where you are. My FC mate was the first Gold this season, and instantly started getting stacked with new players on his team, demoted, just to instantly get back to Gold. Hated every moment of being Gold because RNG fucked him every single fight. You claim it was easy to slip into top 10 early when at the time as you got Higher, you got all of the new players against bronze who belong in plat/gold.
No one is trying to intimidate average-ness, I'm talking directly to you, just as you are me. I'll rephrase for you. Februs, you are not good enough to weigh in when it comes to comparing Aether vs Primal high skill levels. Yes, I would love to fight Primal people, particular you at this point in some Light Party games. Would be a landslide against you. lol -
10-28-2016, 08:00 AMFreeKingStefanThis is said by every bad PVPer ever. Those who are active in the PVP community will know exactly who the good teams are and who the win-traders are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Februs