Haha, this captures how I feel when people pidgeon-hole DRK as a "magic mitigation tank" ...pre-3.0, tanks hand CDs that mitigated both (Rampart, Vengeance) and CDs that mitigated only physical (Bulwark, Foresight, etc.), and then DRK comes along with an extra one that mitigates magic specifically (why the other tanks didn't have something like this always struck me as weird) and its like omg, magic tank, lowest defense (wat), inferior to PLD, blah blah like they wouldn't have sold their souls for such a cooldown the first time any of them saw something like Akh Morn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
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02-11-2016, 01:05 PMSyzygian
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02-11-2016, 01:25 PMAlistairePosts like these are definitely better when backed up by the math...at least I can say I've seen the math and this is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Instrumentality
Overall I have to completely disagree with OP. I guess it's a good thing SE's already come out and said they're buffing PLD, and with that in mind, @ OP did you really expect to make a thread like this, have SE go "OK you're right we'll leave PLD where it is even though we just said we were going to fix it" ??? -
02-11-2016, 02:05 PMSyzygian
I don't completely disagree with the OP. I think its senseless to just hand-out WAR/DRK-level DPS to PLD, especially since the job has no semblance of a DPS-related playstyle mechanic around which optimal play would revolve to provide that DPS (like stacks for WAR or mana for DRK). But if its going to be the lowest DPS, it needs to have the best or at least much better utility than it has currently, for sure.
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02-11-2016, 03:09 PMFallenWings
Even though the ideal for people is that there be more class variation, for effective balance, the Tanks need to be able to directly or indirectly contribute damage either through their own personal output or being able to supplement the output of others that would be equivalent. Clearly PLD did none of this.
It's been stated before but PLD's mitigation is another case of Big-Numbers syndrome wherein people judge its capabilities at face value.
40% Sentinel? Wow that's better than everything WAR and DRK have! PLD BEST TANK. Hallowed Ground plain invincibility?! OPOPOP.
People unfortunately fail to see the full context of the abilities as well as how they actually play out in current content design end up setting themselves up for disappointment.
Even in their respective tank stances a Warrior would mitigate AND contribute more damage than a PLD.
If you wanted the reverse, you'd have to make PLD mitigate something like x5 better than the other two, whilst nerfing its personal output to borderline pure auto-attacks and/or further buffing its support capabilities that directly supplement damage from other classes. Content would still have to be tuned so that the weakest tank mitigation-wise would be able to tank it fine(in this scenario WAR/DRK).
Doing so however opens another whole can of worms wherein PLD would find great difficulty in soloing any content, and his contribution be completely reliant on whether or not his/her party members choose to even utilize it. If for example the PLD is stuck in a dungeon run wherein his DPS have died on their keyboards and the healer desires only to heal, then it is simply impossible to even clear said dungeon whereas if a WAR/DRK whom are able to directly utilize their own contribution have a better chance to clear the dungeon with said DPS and healer.
Honestly an borderline invincible tank is probably going to make both the healers bored as well as the invincible tank. But that's my opinion, perhaps people enjoy doing nothing while they play.
I mean, if you really wanted it, and it fits fine with the endgame balance then maybe, but just be aware of the consequences of the other end of the spectrum.
But seriously, what the frisbies is going on with Shadow Wall? It's so half baked compared to Vengeance and Sentinel, it's just plain worse than the two with no redeeming factor for itself! -
02-11-2016, 03:23 PMSyzygianWow that was out of the blue. Man people just can't make posts like this without taking off-the-wall shots at DRK.Quote:
Originally Posted by FallenWings
My guess is because of Reprisal's high uptime combined with the fact that you have a second "Shadow Wall" for magic damage, on a piddly 60s recast. Its a balancing act.
And frankly, there's nothing I can think of that can be survived with Sentinel that cannot be with Shadow Wall. -
02-11-2016, 03:26 PMAlistaireYeah you can't balance ability to ability without either every job looking the exact same or 1 falling behind. The balance was done with the big picture in mind and was probably balanced along with things like Dark Mind considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
Also idk about "off the wall shots at DRK", if the thread's about tank balance, there's only 3 to compare and ignoring one is kind of ignoring the point of a thread about balance. -
02-11-2016, 04:17 PMLyth
While it's nice to give every job its own flavour and niche, I think that you run into problems when a job gets defined in such broad strokes. From 2.0 to 2.5, PLD had a stranglehold on the MT role simply because it was viewed as *the* mitigation tank. This kind of approach might be acceptable when there are only two tank jobs ("offensive" and "defensive"), but it doesn't really work when you add in more. Imagine what would happen if you designated a single dps job as *the* definitive high damage dps class?
It's not that these issues didn't exist previously and simply surfaced in HW. They've been brewing for a long time, and the introduction of DRK as a viable MT in AS simply brought it into focus. We're now stuck in a situation where PLD is *the* mitigation MT, DRK is a pretty good substitute when you need your MT to do more damage or specifically mitigate magic damage (or actually enjoy their gameplay instead of passively soaking damage in a semi-concious daze), and WAR is *the* high damage tank.
While I'm not a big fan of homogenization, I'd rather see alternate approaches being used to solve a given problem. Tank knockbacks are a good example of this, with PLD being able to Tempered Will, WAR being able to HG, and DRK being able to use a timed Plunge. Some tanks have it easier than others, either mechanically or in terms of cooldown lengths, but every job has a unique solution. Passive discrepancies (i.e. this tank automatically takes less physical damage because it can both block and parry) set us up for situations in which your tank is forced to job hop on the basis of what type of content gets released.
It's tiring being a PLD/DRK. It would be nice to be allowed to choose. -
02-11-2016, 07:04 PMSpookyGhostI read through this a few times, and while I do have things I'd nitpick at, I largely agree. I think there's a lot to consider when comparing WAR's kit to PLD's, one often overlooked is Sheltron being available outside of tank stance - while (hopefully) staying in DPS stance for 99% of the fight won't remain to be a thing, in the time it takes Unchained to come back up for what is essentially a free IB you can use Sheltron 4 times. But this really starts delving into the realm of hypotheticals and situation-to-situation comparisons that is just too much of a mess to get into. PLD's defensive kit is definitely not all it's chocked up to be, there was a very good reason that people were considering running 2x WAR in physical fights before changes were announced (not only did you get similar mitigation, you also got the massive boon of DPS that came with those crazy axe wielders).Quote:
Originally Posted by Phoenicia
Anyway, really informative post, and highlights a lot of things often overlooked by a lot of people. Good stuff, Phoenicia. ( ' - ' )b -
02-11-2016, 07:05 PMFebrusNot necessarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syzygian
The original kit for Gld seemed to be geared towards much higher Dps than they ended up with. Fight or Flight is a fantastic offensive Tank buff, the original Shield Swipe had a much higher potency and was designed to be proc'd by shield defense (combined potency of GCD Shield Swipe actually surpassed the RoH combo potency if used consecutively via Bulwark), and Gld has the highest auto attack and skill speed of all the tanks.
If you look at the way the Gld class was being made, right up until lvl 30 it actually looks as though the Gld was going to be the Mnk of the tanking world (lighter hits, but very quick). In some ways, SE has still continued with this build. Sword Oath, for example, takes advantage of Pld's high auto attack speed to dish out more Dps, and a lot of Pld gear grants additional Skill Speed over the other tanks. It would not have been too surprising to see SE utilize this in the game play.
In that regard, War's have Wrath stacks. Drk's have mana management, and Pld's would/should have had Tp management ... Obviously this did not happen, as Pld's ended up with no way to manage their Tp whatsoever (short of not attacking at all).
It's really weird, honestly. It's almost as if SE started with a completely different concept for Gld and switched gears when they started designing Pld. -
02-11-2016, 07:09 PMFallenWings
It was probably uncalled for but it just irked me that Shadow Wall and Shadow Skin, as stable as they are, are a bland taste compared to the rest of the DRK arsenal. Wouldn't have mind if Wall had an additional effect aside from the badass animation. Anything. Please. Even 5% evasion!
But what would I know about balance, I'm just a dirty Warrior with no weakness. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯