Random Query: The Trinity System

I would like a hard quadrinity.
Tanks: low damage output, high survivability and stances wich switch damage output and survivability
DPS: high damage output, low to medium survivability (nearly one- to twoshot by trash and bosses), low utility
Healer: high heal capacity, utility, low survivability, low damage output
Support: low heal capacity, low damge output, low to medium survivability, high utility capacity

But this will never happen cause of the need to redesign the old content instead they are hiding support behind DPS and healer jobs.

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Originally Posted by Kurogaea

Don't we already have the trinity? Healer Tank and DPS?

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We have the trinity as basic system but we have DPS with high survivability, normal DPS and DPS which can heal ingame.
This is what i mostly see in my runs, perhaps the difficulty of the dungeons is just to low so the trinity just don't work like intended.

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Originally Posted by Tint

the key here is active dodging. i am playing right now a game where you can dodge every attack. and one attack hits for 50% to 100% of your HP and you can heal yourself 10 times for around 20% of your max HP. you don't need any dps checks because surviving alone is the skill check. no red circles, no visible cast bar... this works fine without trinity.

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Sounds like your talking about SkyForge, which regardless if your not is a game that doesn't even have a healing class (least last I played) its just Tank, 2 dps and 2 support in the dungeons and honestly it can be brutal. However that game to me IS a massive DPS check cus if the mobs don't die quick then your tank is dead and so will the rest of the team, sure active dodging but...still felt you were getting hit regardless of how well you think your dodging. The one thing they did do right (I guess to some people) is you can pretty much join in on any game and actually level sync up if the other two are vastly higher level.

On the topic, I'd actually like them to try a 4 role team even if its only for testing and see how people react, we don't always have to stay on the old ideals.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

We have the trinity as basic system but we have DPS with high survivability, normal DPS and DPS which can heal ingame.
This is what i mostly see in my runs, perhaps the difficulty of the dungeons is just to low so the trinity just don't work like intended.

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You know, if the companion system was implemented at the beginning of the games development, healing classes could be just healing ones instead of healing/dps. Or if we all....GASP.....If we all started as plain characters that can equip basic weapons (to handle PvE overworld stuff) and use job stones to change our entire move sets we could've actually had a full on trinity system in dungeons and raids :O

Honestly A self-sufficient system is a major negative in a mmo where group gameplay SHOULD be the focal point of the genre. Without a reason to rely on healers and tanks the game becomes honestly nothing but a giant fate throughout where everyone is doing thier own thing.

With that said XIV is horribly lacking as well as the trinity system is also pure garbage. Simply because the game is missing 2 elements which added alot of dept to the fights and the game as a whole.

Crowd Control (Enfeebling XI terms)
Support (Enhancing XI Terms)

Which were lost with the WoW revolution due to both those classes typically being horrible at being self sufficient. And no MCH and BRD are not support classes in XIV.

XIV needs to encompass the whole group based party system in my opinion, Increase raid size, and get rid of the stupid damage check for everything system.

Because atm the system we have is blah, and honestly GW2s model is probably the worst thing in the whole genre. It work in a single player RPG but not a mmorpg.

And for those saying the dmg would have to be drastic. Look to XI with BRD or Cor. They did next to no damage, but they were taken 100% over an extra DPS. Can also look at Rift. The problem with XIV atm is the game is shallow as hell, adding support and crowd control would help alleviate that problem. Complexity is what the game needs. Making it with no complexity is one of the major design flaws of this game.

I feel XIV is also missing something else on top of an expanded or overhauled party system (ie. the trinity system overhauled). XIV is missing equipment/weapon variety.
What I mean is that the weapons and armor you get in XIV are incredibly linear. The gear does not have "abilities" or bonus stats natively that give players a choice or reason to customize their character with certain pieces. Instead we have this system where one piece is better than the next with nearly the exact same stats just more of that stat. For example: law gear is trumped by alexander gear, which is then trumped by eso/void ark gear, which is trumped by savage gear, so on and so forth, the cycle continues each patch.

There is barely any reason to mix and match gear. There are no bonuses attached to gear such as 10% dmg bonus against undead, an added haste effect, 10% boost to magic dmg or ninjutsu, elemental or dmg type resistances or what have you. There are no "attack 2-4 times" weapons or anything that made gear and equipment farming so satisfying like it was in FFXI or other games.

Sadly, I'm not certain this can be changed now without overhauling the entire game to do it. Which is likely why people atleast want to see an overhauled trinity system to allow for actual support classes.

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Originally Posted by Xatsh

Awesome sauce

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Some like it this way. All trinity like and stuff (for some odd reason). I'm all in for support roles though, I mean, my dancing gif down there :p How would the crowd control thing be settled? Also I thought blm and summoner were basically crowd control (well in pvp, not sure about pve) :O

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Originally Posted by Legion88

DPS: high damage output, low suvivability (nealy one- to twoshot by trash and bosses), low utility
Healer: high heal capacity, utility, medium survivability, low damage output

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So... my plate and scale armour as a Dragoon is made of Papier-Mâché and healers robe out of Adamantite Thread. Interesting.

I'm pretty much against the devs really deviating from the trinity system because, as others have already stated, the balance issues would far outweigh the theoretical positives.

I played another game known as Dragon Nest, an action MMO, that originally started with something that resembled the trinity system somewhat (although there were never role restrictions in parties at all), although once they began releasing new classes that deviated away from the system (as in having hybrid roles), it resulted in massive balancing issues for YEARS that slowly drained the life out of that game. You had healing classes able to out-DPS half the classes in the game AND out-heal the other healers for various reasons (such as faster-casting/longer range heals). Some of the top DPS classes in the game were capable of tanking better than actual tanks, along with having party buffs and debuffs that were so good that the developers had to implement a cap on how high stats could go/how much enemies could get debuffed (which only made the situation worse, as people min-maxed party compositions around them). And the devs would implement mechanics to discourage abuse of the buffs/debuffs such as buff wipes and numerous boss invulnerability mechanics, but all that really resulted in was a 'burst to skip mechanics or die' mentality among the community.

On top of that, the power creep and the DPS checks soon became so insane and the gap between what classes could do in parties became so vast that clearing a raid eventually became a question of what classes you were taking, rather than anything to do with player skill. Even regular solo content became near unplayable for the 'pure healer' and 'pure tank' classes because the hybrid classes and the out of control power creep pushed damage standards unreasonably high. It was so bad to the point where the developers in the past half year decided to basically reboot every class in the game by almost universally nerfing/outright removing some party buffs, debuffs, and heals, redsigned most content, scaled back on the ridiculous mechanics, and actually pulled back into a trinity system. And for the first time in years, people now consider that game's PvE to be -playable- for the average non-raider. Although admittedly, those changes were an extremely hard pill to swallow for the majority of that game's raiders, although most now admit that the changes were necessary in the end - especially when the vast majority of raiders in that game had been changing their class every half year once things began spiraling out of control from what I had seen myself.

(Given the action nature of Dragon Nest, everything in that game is basically varying levels of DPS as well, much like how people would describe healers and tanks in this game. But completely disregarding the trinity system would be foolish in actual practice, while any advantages are only theoretical at best.)

trinity for sure, i don't like games without it, especially gw2 or blade and soul, as much as i wanted to like them i just couldn't get past the no healers tanks thing. those games lost all party setup in favor of soloing everything, i can't remember when i talked to someone in those games. i mean mmorpg is for people playing with other people not a solo game. dungeons there are a complete zergfest. In all other ffs we have the trinity system without it there wouldn't be any use for the party. so yes i support trinity system all the way, if they change it and make it more gw2 like i would leave this game.