Horizontal Progression like that sucks. Horizontal Progression should be about making a character to your play style. The second I need to "swap sets" for every boss because I don't have enough "Ice Resistance (crappy stat, terrible idea.)" is the day I quit. ;)
Horizontal Progression is about procs/effects/set bonsuses!
Why vertical progression is poorly implemented
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01-18-2016, 09:35 AMNektulos-Tuor
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01-18-2016, 09:42 AMPreypacerI'm finding that to be a very, very common sentiment among people playing this... and that's not a good thing. I'm in that same boat, as are several of my friends.Quote:
Originally Posted by AeraLure
SE seems to be in a creative rut and can't think of ways to make XIV more interesting. Or, maybe they've designed them self into some corners they don't know how to get out of (see: Housing as one example of this). Whatever the case, they're clinging to the same few systems that are repeated patch after patch after patch. It wouldn't be so bad if there was at least more variety within these systems, but there isn't. It's to the point of being predictable, or at least completely unsurprising, what future updates will bring.
And what happened to them listening to the players, something they vowed to do back when they were trying to get our trust back? I guess that doesn't matter to them anymore, because they seem to not only be listening less and less, but saying "No" more and more, whether directly, or through their actions.
Examples?
Well, there's been many, many posts and discussions - here, and elsewhere, on forums, blogs, vlogs, etc - of people asking and openly "hoping" that SE would do something more interesting for the new Relic weapons. People saying "please don't just throw another long, boring grind at us. Give us interesting storylines, epic, unique fights, a fun quest chain, even if it's really difficult". What does SE do? Gives us another grind, echoing the original Relic process.
I recall people saying they were tired of the tomestone grind a few iterations ago now. It's been brought up many times that repeating the same tomestone process over and over again was getting old and boring. It's been requested many times to please introduce something new, do away with the tomestones, find a new, more interesting system. SE's response? Well, a new tomestone is reportedly being introduced in 3.2.
The community has fallen a long way from where it was, as well.
I remember when 2.0 first launched, this community was rabid in their support and defense of the game, to the point of being outright hostile toward any dissenting opinion. If you even so much as accidentally typed FFXI as a typo, forgetting the V - nevermind deliberately referencing it in some way - you were ripped to shreds. I'm sure I'm not the only one who was around and remembers this. Now? People openly make comparisons to and draw suggestions from FFXI, and not only are they not ripped to shreds, but more people are beginning to agree with them - if for no other reason than to get some new, fresh ideas into this game.
People are beginning to see how saying FFXI did a lot of things right, if not better than FFXIV, is not hyperbole, it isn't heretical, and it's not "rose-colored glasses". It's becoming more commonplace to see people making such statements. Horizontal progression is a major one that's often referenced, but not at all the only thing.
It's an increasingly common opinion that 3.0 has been a rehash of 2.0.
People ask for more character customization, Yoshi-P says "nope".
The only things they seem to readily say "yes" to is stuff like new minions, mounts or new items in the cash shop.
In every other way, it seems to me, SE is slowly slipping back into the "we know what's best for the players, we don't need their input" arrogance that got them in trouble with 1.0.
So, between the change in the community around this game, and the change I'm seeing in SE toward it... things really don't seem to be moving in a positive direction for this game anymore. They built up a lot of goodwill with the turn-around of 2.0, but it seems they're beginning to burn through it, and it won't last forever. -
01-18-2016, 09:49 AMXellos2099It doesn't matter at all since there is always a superior spec. Anything less than ideal will be kicked. Remember the original xi guide that state war/whm is a good combination?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
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01-18-2016, 09:55 AMCyrilLuciferBad example, that guide was filled with a lot of flat out wrong information. No one in their right mind would use THF/BLM, one of the "recommended" combinations for battle. There is no point in it. XI's mechanics did not allow THF/BLM to work outside of traveling and running around in towns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos2099
The XI guide was also a house of misinformation as well as wrong information. It also said that SMN/BLM was good for nukes, which was absolutely absurd because of the way skill levels work in XI. You can't even get an unresisted nuke in XI without the appropriate skill level, which is impossible to reach with /BLM. THF/BLM and SMN/BLM being bad have nothing to do with efficiency and everything to do with XI's skill mechanics, which XIV lacks.
Disclaimer: At 119, SMN/SCH can, however, nuke with Dark Arts with the way gear works now. It's actually really neat, some people use it in their builds. -
01-18-2016, 10:06 AMPurrfectstorm
The best gear is only useful for a millisecond and not even needed on 99% of the content. Plus this game makes it too easy to catch up to the point that the most efficient way to gear up (provided you don't want/need the gear the small percentage of the time it is useful) is to just wait for the next patch. It's demotivating. Don't want to run Alexander Savage? Just wait until the next patch and you'll be given gear that raiders had to work hard to get. Of course, "work hard" is a little misleading since most of the work in my experience is finding groups that don't completely suck.
In my opinion, the best way to do vertical progression is to have more tiers that stay relevant for a longer period of time. For example:
4.0 Expert dungeons drop i300, Tomes give i320, Raid i340
4.1 Expert dungeons drop i310, Tomes i330, Raid i350
But something like this would require a big overhaul to how things are currently done (e.g. not nerfing raids until more time has passed). Also, I'm not a fan of lockouts. I'd rather have low RNG, at least then I can play at the pace I want.
The effect of the changes I would institute would probably create a larger gap between players, but I see this as a good thing, because people could more easily form groups with people at the same skill level and reaching a certain ilevel would actually feel like an accomplishment. -
01-18-2016, 10:45 AMBelhiAll games go through a Honeymoon period. Almost every game I have played had it. For the first month or two when Wildstar launched people were talking about it being the best game ever. Clearly since the game almost tanked that wasn't the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
I might add that personally I actually find the comparisons to FF11 rather annoying but find it rude to rip into people regardless of the reason. Further more you might have noted the term 'White Knight' cropping up plenty indicating that there are those who disagree with some peoples complaints or at least the extent of them.
FF14 isn't FF11 2.0. Its not going to be FF11 2.0. Wether that is a good or bad thing is beside the point. They aren't going to reinvent the wheel at this point. That's just an unrealistic quantity of work. Sure they could allow more than they have now but its not going to be a massive overhaul regardless.
I can almost guarantee that if they made the game more like FF11 the forums would be full of a different set of people complaining. Not everyone likes the same thing. There isn't such a thing as a universally popular choice in almost all work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
Personally I find most horizontal progression models become annoying and problematic. I don't want to spend a lot of time tweaking builds to try and find something that works. I hate having to look up guides to figure out how to make a good character, particularly if they are third party. If there is a bad option then I'm of the view that option shouldn't exist other wise its just annoying. I want to play the game, not screw around with a calculator trying to figure out optimal builds. I hate having to have multiple gear sets for different situations and I hate having to get out a calculator to figure out if a new piece of gear with a special stat is better than what I already have.
There is a 'what's best for players' trap that developers can fall into when designing games and that is a serious issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
There is also a 'we understand what is feasible in building a game' trap that players can fall into when it comes to their expectations of what devs can and will do.
There is also a habit of people assuming that the majority shares their view. Without accurate metrics this is often a flawed assumption.
More over Yoshi P isn't simply saying nope. He by allowing people to play a large number of different Jobs they allow a variety of play styles through that and rather than try and build different versions of the same job it would make more sense to him to spend the resources on building an entirely new Job that felt different again and so felt like a real alternative.
Now I'm not completely against Horizontal progression but from what I have heard of FF11, I don't think I want to see FF14 end up like that. -
01-18-2016, 10:45 AMPreypacerThat's not nearly so commonplace as you (and others) make it sound. The only place people were that strict or demanding, was in the most difficult end-game content. This was true in FFXI, and it's true in XIV, as it is in any MMORPG out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos2099
For all the rest of the game, some people might be "picky" or complain if someone isn't geared as they deem "correct", but as long as people are doing their best and aren't a major liability, they're not going to get kicked.
The strict "requirements" of a small % of players, centered around a small % of the overall game content, are not reason to refuse more options to the greater %, among whom are people who would happily experiment and try out new builds.
Hell, over the course of almost 8 years, I was told all the time in XI that I had the wrong job combo, I wasn't using the optimal gear, etc. etc... but I never got kicked from a group. I even did a bit of end-game stuff, and was never kicked from those groups, either.
Also remember, there was always "one best build" for any given role, until someone took the time to experiment and try out other options, and found something that worked better. Then *that* became "the one best build". Until someone experimented and found yet another option that worked even better, etc. I lost track of how many times I saw it claimed that "setup X" was the one build to rule them all, and all else is inferior... only to have it replaced as soon as someone came along and proved otherwise.
It all boils down to group-think, and people just doing what everyone else is doing, because everyone else is doing it. Ironically, I found those quickest to say "learn how to play", in terms of character builds, were often (but not at all always) the ones who had the most to learn, because they were just following guides and playing how others told them to. Quickest way to find out if they knew what they were talking about, or just parroting what they'd been told, or read, was to simply ask them "why?". I'd ask them to explain why I wasn't geared right, or why I should be geared up the way they said. I'd ask them for specifics, numbers, etc.. Many times, they couldn't give any, and would just say "learn to play" again before dropping the subject. -
01-18-2016, 10:58 AMBelhiGah!Quote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
That sounds even worse. That's one of the reasons I left GW2. I want to play the game content, not screw around with builds. -
01-18-2016, 10:59 AMAnimaAnimus
Personally I liked how in XI I could, hunt nms, run dyna, salavage, einherjar, nyzul, etc all the while earning items directly toward or to sell or trade for items for my relic/mythic weapons. And get multiple pieces a time for multiple jobs.
Finally getting a piece of gear to drop and winning the lot was crazy exciting and you would proudly wear it around. Sure gear swaps were a pain but that was due to a bad macro system and miniscule item bag. Remember the days of only being able to carry 30 items total? Gear and other drops? And it was worth spending 1-2m gil on a crafted ring or body piece.
The best part of it, was that I knew all my hard work and time spent wasn't going to be all for naught 2 months down the line.
Even if they want to keep going vertical, it is waaaaay to fast. -
01-18-2016, 11:04 AMNicoboDisagree. ^^;Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
This game has a macro progressing system, it is your entire character. But not limited to a single job/class,
players allocating their resouces to which job/class, spending limited ESO for which job,
farm gears for which job. how to progress your carfting / gathering jobs...etc
The weekly restrcition etc also has an effect that making players' progression to be different, otherwise everyone will have everything done at the same time.
About new players,
Most new players just want to fly on HW asap, 2.0 MSQ were not fun for them.
They should have reached lv60 in 1-2month and doing same thing as everyone.
They like to play "new released contents" but not "everyone had played except me" contents.
About the gear iLV, every patch using new gear are so good!
For example in FFXI, everyone using the Lv7 boots really odd! It was a broken system.
Ppl tho oh using old low-lv gear = horrizontal progress? but I just tho so stupid that every(except mage) job every lv still need to use this lv7 boot.
Another example, the "Peacock Charm", lv33 neck, omg I had been using this forever(except mage). This is what horrizontal progess???
Then my mage, I had 8 elemental HQ staff , and change which staff to cast the corresponding magic...
Was this completely broken system is what some ppl very missing? ^^;
I agree with this, but only when these ppl creating their games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemuria
Now these game has been changed towarded what some players wanted,
with that said now these ppl are creating "your" game therefore the game is becoming less and less fun for "myself".