PvP Gear Thoughts - Lets hear your Ideas

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Originally Posted by Yaichiro

By following your opinion then a new player should be given a char with lvl 60 without the daunting work of leveling up but it doesn't work that way which is the reason people are asking for a relevant rewards in frontlines especially when wolves den is kinda empty.

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This is a pretty bad comparison here. Comparing pvp to pve makes no sense but if you wanna go there anyway that's like saying every dungeon/trial/raid in DF needs to be unsynced cause you worked "hard" to reach ur level/ilvl. Just imagine this, it completely removes the challenge and fun for the new players if you just have ilvl 200 players waltzing into events that were clearly not designed for them at their current lvl/ilvl steamrolling everything. What you dont understand (or dont want to understand idk) is that frontlines was created to cater to a much broader and casual crowd. As such, alot of casuals are in there compared to wolves den. Do you know why the pvp gear is useful in wolves den? Because wolves den unlike frontlines offers different modes depending on your lvl and ilvl. You are able to avoid going into an instance where you have no chance of winning just because someone PVP's more than you. You would not be able to do that in frontlines unless they add modes to it similar to the wolves den. Anyway it is fine the way it is. What they need to do is show some love to wolves den again and make it more relevant which hopefully they will do in 3.1.

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Originally Posted by Yaichiro

Right now someone setting a foot in frontlines is relatively as good as someone had 100 matches simply because skill is extremely less important in frontlines which relies on RNG and having the "right" alliance.

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I sincerely doubt you actually do feel that someone who just started frontlines today is already as good as you. If you do then you are in the minority as im pretty sure most hardcore pvp'rs do not feel this way. Yes there is unfortunately an added element of rng in there but to say that skill is completely irrelevant in there is asinine. Obviously your impact as a whole as a skilled player will not be as significant as in wolves den by virtue of numbers in having to rely on 23 other ppl also being competent. However skill and strategic thinking is still the most consistent way to win matches in frontlines albeit much more watered down than wolves den.

Some of these gear concerns/statements might be somewhatmitigated with more than just the one gear set for PvP. For instance if there was a gear set for frontlines with a slightly lower ilvl than the wolves den set, as frontlines is synced down much lower anyhow. They could even go so far as to make the wolves den set the same ilvl as the PvE set, this only seems viable because the wolves den is the only place morale and materia work for that gear anyway. While making the frontlines set require a slightly lower PvP rank, not by much I don't support handouts, but maybe set it up with the same rank required for the I110 set they just opened. This may allow people mid grind something more obtainable and maybe even throw in some kind of variety into the limited gear options for the ever dedicated PvP community at large, something that I feel most would appreciate,even if only for the glamour aspect seems appealing to you?

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Originally Posted by distant-cubix

This may allow people mid grind something more obtainable and maybe even throw in some kind of variety into the limited gear options for the ever dedicated PvP community at large, something that I feel most would appreciate,even if only for the glamour aspect seems appealing to you?

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I'd approve of something like this, mostly because the rank grind can feel like running head long into a brick wall as it is now.Basically, between rank 30-50 there's absolutely no rewards short of a few measly skill points. For new players to PvP, it's even worse. The glamour set was unlocked for them already, without rank req, so they probably feel like they're not working towards anything, especially after rank 40. The Exp requirements shoot up astronomically. Half of the total PvP exp is in those last 10 ranks, and, unlike PvE, there's nothing in PvP to scale Exp rewards with the increase. That's probably a big discouragement to a lot of new PvP'ers.

Personally, as far as gear goes, I think there should, at the very least, be a glamour set that is rank locked somewhere around rank 40. It would be nice if that armour set was actually useful, materia and otherwise, but even just a glamour set would be good.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

frontlines was created to cater to a much broader and casual crowd. As such, alot of casuals are in there compared to wolves den.

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I often wonder about this, because it seems counter intuitive. What I mean is, Frontlines (Capture and Seize) have actual game mechanics and are objective based. These two game modes actually call for players to work together in order to achieve a broader goal besides simply killing. Proof in the pudding is that you can actually win a Frontlines seize match without killing a single enemy (if you have a rabbit's foot stuffed up your butt and really luck out with Node spawns). Wolves Den, on the other hand, is far more simple by comparison. You're stuck in an arena and you're told to kill the people in front of you. This still takes teamwork and coordination, obviously, but, in terms of actual game mode mechanics, and even the sheer complexity of team coordination (ie: battle highs/fevers/and LB utility), Seize, and back in the day capture, game modes are FAR more complicated... and yet, Seize is somehow aimed at a "much broader and casual crowd..." Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that one. If SE was aiming this at a more casual crowd, then this is another example of them totally missing the mark in their logical reasoning.

That aside, I do sympathize with your sentiments on this topic, but I really don't see a problem with giving PvP'ers more options to optimize their gameplay. Players who put the effort in should be rewarded for that effort. Even if you want to compare this to PvE, it would make sense. I'm not talking about dungeon level syncs or ranks/levels, I'm talking about achievements and rewards. People who run savage, for exaple, get the gear. Even better, back in the day when we were all grinding for our zodiac weapons, the people who put the effort in, customized their stats and finished the grind, got the reward. It's not a HUGE, game altering, make or break difference (not something that would totally unbalance your average match, in any rate), but it was a difference that enhanced the experience, and those players definitely deserved the fruits of their labours. The same goes for PvP. I don't see why there shouldn't be more gear options available for the players that care. The impact is small (that includes any negative impacts), and the sense of achievement is good.

Even from a strict PvP standpoint, this would make sense. Casual or not, PvP in all of its forms is a competitive game mode. This "all is fair" kind of attitude that SE, and a lot of forum people, seem to have doesn't really suit competitive gameplay, and casual players are going to que casually anyway, regardless of the actions of the hardcore crowd. If a player truly is "casual" it's not like they're going to go out of their way to pursue an optimized loadout even if the options are there. So, why cater to them? I'm not saying they should make such unbalanced options that it would allow for steamrolling (nor could they with the current way secondary gear stats are allocated), but optimization options should most definitely be considered by SE. PvP is far too empty as it is now.

From what I can see PvP currently lacks a level 60 Rank 1 to 15 set (i145 Morale +30), a level 60 Rank 16 to 30 set (i160 Morale +30) and a Rank 31 to 45 set (i170 Morale +30).

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Originally Posted by Yaichiro

When all players can achieve such rewards it's not called an advantage but a tangible achievement. Think about levels and how you need to work your way to lvl 60. By following your opinion then a new player should be given a char with lvl 60 without the daunting work of leveling up but it doesn't work that way which is the reason people are asking for a relevant rewards in frontlines especially when wolves den is kinda empty.

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I'm guessing by your join date you might not be aware of just how crazy the PvP gear advantage between a new Rank 0 player and a Rank 30 player in i90 was when Wolf's Den was first released. Newly 50 (<i55) Rank 0 players could and often would go from full hp to 0 in 3 actions from an Rank 30 (PvPi90) player. PvEi90 characters faired slightly better as the rank 30s would kill them in 2/3rds the time it would take them to kill another PvEi90 and would only take 1/2 damage. The advantage was so significant that it can be directly attributed as the cause of the Wolf's Den's quick collapse.

While in theory the Rank 0s could in theory "achieve" Rank 30 the amount of losses needed to reach that point made it physiologically non-viable.

Also a properly geared character in i180+ crit/det/speed gear is roughly 5% to 15% stronger* than those in standard PvE gear.

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Originally Posted by Februs

. This still takes teamwork and coordination, obviously, but, in terms of actual game mode mechanics, and even the sheer complexity of team coordination (ie: battle highs/fevers/and LB utility), Seize, and back in the day capture, game modes are FAR more complicated... and yet, Seize is somehow aimed at a "much broader and casual crowd..." Yeah, I'm gonna call BS on that one. If SE was aiming this at a more casual crowd, then this is another example of them totally missing the mark in their logical reasoning.

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Wolf's Den puts a crazy amount of responsibility on each player's shoulders (especially the healer's) for success. If even 1 player does not know what to do(or was a bot) your chances for success were significantly less to near zero.

Secure, Seize and slaughter put far less responsibility on to each individual player's shoulders. If 1 to 4 players didn't really know what to do it is less of a problem and the other players can cover for them and get the win. This makes it very casual/new player friendly.

*Depends on class and role. Tanks get the biggest boost as they have PvE pieces with both accuracy and parry.

1. The old lv50 sets dont need ranks anymore and that is GOOD. Its old content, but im disappointed by the lack of content to replace it. SE really couldnt make 3 or 4 new Lv60 sets to replace the Lv50 ones?!

2. The shops should make better us of marks. So the comments for minions/bardings/mounts/housing items. They are great and if they were implemented I hope they are untradable.

3. When PvP finally have arena ranks and awards for ranks, then maybe people will care about ranking up and getting better stats for pvp. To those that wanna cry about it being unfair stats when arena ranks are up, well TOO BAD, you should have invested more time in pvp then!

Also guys, we DO have advantages over new pvpers with out points, so its not as if our ranks are useless. My issue is their terrible math with it being 4pts/skill buff but our max rank is 50... Our last 2 ranks are useless in that department lol.

Btw, ranking up in pvp now IS A JOKE. Litterally so easy and fast now lmao... Why do people complain about ranking up in pvp anymore anyway.

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Originally Posted by Dimitrii

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You clearly don't understand how sync works. You're synced to the highest level of the encounter not the lowest and your gears are capped at the maximum amount. A player who has just opened the encounter with all his gears at the same level is way weaker than you when you're synced and even if you that player is at the highest level with proper gears, you're still stronger due to your capped stats but nevertheless that player has closed the gap. This is what I am asking for in front lines which is quite simple; you start weak and as you progress you close the gap.

No one here is asking for boss like players. We do not need unkillable targets in PvP but we want something that adds flavour to our experience in PvP. I don't quite get it why you're saying frontlines are for casuals nor your definition of casuals. Casuals aren't people who can't perform according to objectives nor it doesn't mean that they are bad players. Perhaps what you mean by casuals are ESO/LAW farmers who I bet you will play wolves den much more frequently than seal rocks if they could get similar rewards. How do I know this? Well have you checked the frequency of slaughter/secure matches?

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Wolf's Den puts a crazy amount of responsibility on each player's shoulders (especially the healer's) for success ... slaughter put far less responsibility on to each individual player's shoulders. If 1 to 4 players didn't really know what to do it is less of a problem and the other players can cover for them and get the win. This makes it very casual/new player friendly..

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This is not completely accurate, and it does not change the fact that, at it's bare bones core, Wolves Den is far simpler a game mode than Seize.

What you're saying is that, if you want to win and be good in PvP then you absolutely have to know your job. Yes, very true, but that doesn't somehow change in seize. If you want to be good in seize then you still need to know your role, especially healers. The Alliance with no heals is likely doomed to fail. The only difference between the game modes for what you pointed out is that you have more people to hide behind. That just means that, if you don't know what you're doing, it might not be as obvious. That doesn't mean it's any less damning to your teams success rate. You're just not considering scale. 1/4 does not directly compare to 1/24.

Put it this way, if 1 out of 4 people in wolves den don't know their job, as you said, it's catastrophic to your chances for victory. Now consider this, if the same percentage of your players are new, 1/4 (25% would be 6/24), and doesn't know what they're doing, how good do you think your odds are in that game mode? They're just as bad. Worse yet, in seize they have to figure out more than just their role. In wolves den, it simple. You have a role and you stick to it to kill the guys in front of you. The only difference between that and PvE is figuring out how playing your role has changed against live players. In seize, new players still have to figure that out. On top of that, they also have to learn the game mechanics. Node spawns, map usage, tactical positioning, when to attack and when to defend, etc. It only takes one bad player to screw that up for everyone if they think they know what they're doing and start leading the team with bad instructions.

Even if you somehow think that the noobs are not a threat to your odds of victory in seize (which is silly), that doesn't change the fact that the game mode itself is far more complex than a simple point and kill game mode.

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Originally Posted by Juen

Btw, ranking up in pvp now IS A JOKE. Litterally so easy and fast now lmao... Why do people complain about ranking up in pvp anymore anyway.

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It probably has something to do with the fact that at least half of the total exp required to make rank 50 is squeezed into lvls 40-50. The exp requirements shoot up astronomically, but there's no way to scale the exp you earn with your current rank. Which means all that speedy progress you made between rank 1-39 (especially for those people who only just started after seize came out) hits a brick wall at 40. Depending on how many hours you get to commit to PvP, you go from climbing a couple of levels a day to a couple of levels a week.

I'm curious though, if you're having such an easy time with it, what's the secret to your, supposedly rapid, success?

Im about to hit rank 50 this week actually. And this is just doing the daily roulette and weekly log. Not to mention, i even skipped a few weeks of pvp so thats super EASY minimal 600 pvp exp I lost daily for those weeks. If I almost hit rank 50 with no effort and just doing a total of around 10 to 12 matchs a week, yeah... Ranking use from 1 to 40 should be a BREEZE. Only difference should be the queue times for multiple different people coz we all play at different times.

Fast queue times
Daily roulette
Challenge log

Yeah... Ranking up is so easy now... Like if someone farmed their whole weekly esos in pvp. They would easily achieve 5 to 3 pvp ranks/week at lower ranks and 1 to 2 ranks at higher ones doing the daily roulette with challenge logs.