Will we ever... (t9 related)

In the English localization of the cutscene immediately following T9 Nael specifically says that the body he is in is not his own. Does he say this same thing in the Japanese version? Surely that would eliminate any speculation that the gender swap was actually fixing up a 1.0 localization error, since it would be unnecessary in the Japanese version?

Also if there was an error with Nael's gender in the 1.0 localization why did they even have Nael lose his helmet? Given how we're still unsure of the identity of Nael's new form there was really no reason for them to even unmask him unless they deliberately wanted us to speculate on the body swap.

Nael's new female form was revealed too deliberately to just be a cover for a mistake. They could easily have just kept it hidden but they chose not to which tells me there is significance to it. If anything the fact such a big deal was made of it with no concrete answers suggests to me that we're not actually finished with Nael's story.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

In the English localization of the cutscene immediately following T9 Nael specifically says that the body he is in is not his own. Does he say this same thing in the Japanese version? Surely that would eliminate any speculation that the gender swap was actually fixing up a 1.0 localization error, since it would be unnecessary in the Japanese version?

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The JP version doesn't have Nael say anything about his/her body.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Also if there was an error with Nael's gender in the 1.0 localization why did they even have Nael lose his helmet? Given how we're still unsure of the identity of Nael's new form there was really no reason for them to even unmask him unless they deliberately wanted us to speculate on the body swap.

Nael's new female form was revealed too deliberately to just be a cover for a mistake. They could easily have just kept it hidden but they chose not to which tells me there is significance to it. If anything the fact such a big deal was made of it with no concrete answers suggests to me that we're not actually finished with Nael's story.

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If my (unverified) sources are right, Nael was always a woman in the JP version, but due to using masculine Japanese pronouns was translated as a man. Since there was very little voicework in 1.x, there was no context for "his" voice, so there was no conflict in translating her as being male. Then the Coil comes around, and Nael is revealed to be a woman... so they said Bahamut got EN!Nael wrong and "accidentally" gave him a sex change when reconstructing his body.

Only possible due to lack of voices and quirks with Japanese pronouns. Done deliberately to shock the players a la Samus Aran back in the original Metroid.

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Originally Posted by Cilia

If my (unverified) sources are right, Nael was always a woman in the JP version, but due to using masculine Japanese pronouns was translated as a man. Since there was very little voicework in 1.x, there was no context for "his" voice, so there was no conflict in translating her as being male. Then the Coil comes around, and Nael is revealed to be a woman... so they said Bahamut got EN!Nael wrong and "accidentally" gave him a sex change when reconstructing his body.

Only possible due to lack of voices and quirks with Japanese pronouns. Done deliberately to shock the players a la Samus Aran back in the original Metroid.

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Hmm, if this is indeed the case then I would honestly have thought less of it if Nael hadn't commented on the new body him/herself. They could easily have just revealed Nael to be female and left us to speculate that she used some kind of magitek voice altering device in the helmet. Having the whole unexplained identity of the 'new' female form only makes this feel messy and unfinished if it's actually just a cover for Nael being female all along.

Moose was asking about the combat voice pack that Nael used earlier and it was male in the localized client. As far as I'm aware those voice packs are actually universal and not unique to specific localizations so Nael likely had a male voice pack in the JP client too. At that point it seems to me that this big reveal would make as little sense to the JP players as it does to us.

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Originally Posted by Alberel

Moose was asking about the combat voice pack that Nael used earlier and it was male in the localized client. As far as I'm aware those voice packs are actually universal and not unique to specific localizations so Nael likely had a male voice pack in the JP client too. At that point it seems to me that this big reveal would make as little sense to the JP players as it does to us.

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Correct, the Elezen male voice pack should be the same in every language. Someone who met the Darnus GM in Japan in 1.0 might have the same "Was Darnus a man, originally? Is there a voice modulator in the helmet? Is she taking a gruff tone?" conversation that others are having now.

If people are intent on debating this, I'm glad that piece of evidence was actually in the game. You never can fully trust unseen back-end assets, even when you're looking them on a DB site. An extreme example: Technically, no one is in Darnus' suit; it's hollow. That's probably not evidence that Nael van Darnus was a very complicated Dullahan, though. Likewise, people who need everything tidied up perfectly might focus on there being no way to make an ironclad claim that in-game JP Darnus as of 2012 wasn't a woman lore-wise just because development-wise they used an Elezen male voice alongside Elezen male emotes on an Elezen male skeleton filed as an NPC in the Elezen male list right next to Urianger. Attempts to get past that just invite Pope Joan back into the debate and we go in a familiar circle, again.

This is a lot of focus on the out-of-game end, too, with people trying to figure out which devs had which impressions in which year and whether the people who designed the NPC as a male knew about or if it even mattered at the time. Granted someone might actually guess it right, but at this point I feel like it's doing more harm than good - even my input (perhaps especially my input). Each time this comes around, I'm more concerned that my attempts to help define the boundaries of the known are just dragging things to the surface better left buried or bringing too many pieces to the puzzle. Unless they bring this back up someday, I'm inclined to trust the English exposition by Darnus, Urianger, and Alisaie (and Yoshida-san's apparent acknowledgement of it at Fan Fest) as in-world canon, regardless of how we got there out-of-world, and otherwise not think too hard about it.

In the spirit of getting nowhere, though, maybe Darnus was a man who always privately identified as a woman. It explains everything! :p

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Originally Posted by Cilia

The JP version doesn't have Nael say anything about his/her body.

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I will give virtual donuts (or cookies, hell, the virtual pastry of your choice in copious amounts) to someone willing to repost more than just the one line in Japanese. I will probably get around to it myself tomorrow and just boot in with a different client language, but either way, I'd be willing to provide a less localized translation just to clear things up for the sake of debate. I have no bets placed either way, but something about the line Moose posted bugged me, because the last part (そうであったように), depending on context could translate as "so I wished I was..." but I'm unsure about exactly what was going on in the Japanese script when s/he said that.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

an Elezen male skeleton filed as an NPC in the Elezen male list right next to Urianger.
(...)
Each time this comes around, I'm more concerned that my attempts to help define the boundaries of the known are just dragging things to the surface better left buried or bringing too many pieces to the puzzle.

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Let the record show that I cautioned you against sharing these findings, lol.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

In the spirit of getting nowhere, though, maybe Darnus was a man who always privately identified as a woman. It explains everything! :p

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</disappears into the shadows to the sound of popping corn kernels>

I don't think there is/was a localization issue, those are exceedingly rare nowadays. But besides that, the lore is mapped out well in advanced by the development teams, which includes members from each localization team. I forget who it was but one of the developers posted on here stating that a lot of the lore is mapped out in English first then translated into each language. Sadly I have no T9 experience, :'( , or 1.X experience, but from what I gather, based on what everyone has said, and their infrenses is this; Nael was a man who wished he was a woman. His comment in english "this body is not my own" could be indicating that it's not the body he grew up with. Japan is known for making characters that wish they were the other gender. Also the original Achievement for defeating him/her was called "The Crying Game" that should semi-solidify the characters archetype. Because though they seem humorous those Achievement title aren't choosen at random.

Oh, I'm not saying it's an issue, because I don't particularly care, just that the English script tends to fill in and elaborate on a lot more than gets said in the Japanese script. I can only think of a few times where the embellishments actually contradicted prior lore, but I doubt this one is such a case.

It's curiosity mostly, but since this is such an important issue to some people (Twelve know I have my own), I'm not really sure if I'd be using my powers for the greater good here.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

In the spirit of getting nowhere, though, maybe Darnus was a man who always privately identified as a woman. It explains everything! :p

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As much as I doubt this is what the writers intended I would actually be quite content to think of it this way until we get more information on the subject. Mind you SE did publish Nier so they've dealt with gender identity issues before. Maybe there's a slim chance... :p

It's Menphina! *tumbleweed*

But seriously, if Nael was always a female then why do none of the scions speculate as such as though it was never a possibility? It's such a bizarre thing still to this day, how vaguely it's talked about, and what a big deal the unmasking is supposed to be. The dialogue doesn't make sense to me for a localisation cover-up, and unless Nael being trans/intersex is actually a thing (which is still extremely sketchy) the only theory I can put the slightest bit of faith in is that it's the appearance of someone significant to him, mother/Bradamante/whatever, and his "reanimation" was influenced by a final longing for them in some way. Which is poetic, but by the end of 1.X Nael is completely off the rails, so beats me.