Bard qq

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Typhoria

Imo, they should have kept the MW/GB theme only to MCH. New class new mechanic while the bard getting its own thing. They could have just added in a fairly strict buff/debuff priority rotation and it would have been great.

---

Honestly this was the vibe I was getting when they announced machinist and the concept of using different barrels. It seems really repetitive to give abilities with same concepts to both classes, espesically when one of them was not designed with it in mind (and the other was). I for the life of me cannot stand playing my bard with WM, esp when I keep seeing all those BL resets wasted and cringe when I see straighter shot procs half way into my next heavy shot cast.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Honestly this was the vibe I was getting when they announced machinist and the concept of using different barrels. It seems really repetitive to give abilities with same concepts to both classes, espesically when one of them was not designed with it in mind (and the other was). I for the life of me cannot stand playing my bard with WM, esp when I keep seeing all those BL resets wasted and cringe when I see straighter shot procs half way into my next heavy shot cast.

---

Or even worse (for me, anyways), seeing Straighter Shot procs halfway through casting Straight Shot because it was already casting by the time the animation finished and it decided to proc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NovaLevossida

I don't feel like changing the nature of jobs with the expansion was a good idea. Expand on them, sure. But change the way their core gameplay goes? Nah.

---

Then go back to dealing mediocre damage without minuet.

Balancing ranged weapons classes with instant abilities in mmos isn't simple.

In WoW, people complain about hunters because as long as they're within 40y of you, you're getting shot. Any tactic used to stop any other class' damage was rendered invalid, worthless, and did nothing to ever stop their damage (kiting, interrupting, and silencing spellcasts, displacement by threatening their well being). There was 0 counterplay to their damage besides CC, or hiding behind a pillar, which all classes are effected by.

I bring this up because BRDs, and MCHs with no cast times are effectively melee with a 30y range. Where every other damage dealing job loses out to hokey pokey movement mechanics, etc. If anything, BRD poor scaling in the latter half of ARR actually kept them balanced. If they had damage comparable to the likes of MNK, DRG, or BLM without any of the downsides each role has (close range/adversely effected by the need to move) that would be broken, and would lead to alot more BRD stacking like in 2.0 days.

In short, I hope there aren't many bards around crying for a free damage bonus without the cast times. There's no nice way of saying it, but that's like asking to faceroll.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fanservice

...

---

This is why you give classes differing utility outside of damage. Enough to discourage class stacking anyway. That's why you see DRGs with battle lianity, monks with mantra, so on.

Is this WoW example from a PvP perspective or PvE? If PvP, it's a whole another can of worms that's not related to the discussion at hand. If PvE, then read above what I said. A hunter wasn't going to provide utilities such as stats, spell power or versatility without taking a sub-optimal dps pet, which would not be a problem if you had a warrior, mage, paladin or druid for those instead.

And the thing is with FFXIV content, those downtimes are effectively minimized to negligible amounts by competent melee players who know the fights in and out. Bard stacking happened in 2.0 because they had (admittingly op) utility to themselves that set them aside from other classes, like a damage reduction debuff. Not to mention primal fights that made melee a liability (garuda's wicked wheel comes to mind). Though that's not the case in FCoB fights (which mostly favor melee anyway) and current Alexander fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fanservice

without any of the downsides each role has

---

Why do they need more downsides when they already have inherently lower weapon damage on top of a 15% damage loss when they use 2/3 of their support songs, a damage drop which no other class gets?

Why do they need to be punished to stand still and have cast times just to try to make up that gap in inherently lower damage?

Can you give me an actual reason?

We have 11 oGCD's.

1. Bloodletter (15 Secs / Proc Resets)
2. Blunt Arrow (30 Secs)
3. Repelling Shot (30 Secs / WM makes this hard to keep on CD)
4. Sidewinder (60 Secs)
5. Internal Release (60 Secs)
6. Flaming Arrow (60 Secs)
7. Blood for Blood (80 Secs)
8. Hawkeye (90 Secs)
9. Barrage (90 Secs)
10. Raging Strikes (120 Secs)
11. Misery's End (12 Secs when applicable)

If Miserys End is in play, you have 36 oGCDs to fit in during a 2 minute buff cycle (That's 90 seconds worth of oGCD / 75% of the time). If it is not in play you have 26 (65 seconds / 54% of the cycle).

This does not include any Bloodletter resets, singing, movement, etc. This is purely if you are stood stationary unimpeded with no BL procs.

Saying they are on macro so a non-issue is nonsensical. It's detrimental to the cycle because if you pop a buff and then pop your Heavy Shot macro which fires Bloodletter first, that's a DPS loss as its 2 oGCDs between 1 GCD

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

This is why you give classes differing utility outside of damage. Enough to discourage class stacking anyway. That's why you see DRGs with battle lianity, monks with mantra, so on.

Is this WoW example from a PvP perspective or PvE? If PvP, it's a whole another can of worms that's not related to the discussion at hand. If PvE, then read above what I said. A hunter wasn't going to provide utilities such as stats, spell power or versatility without taking a sub-optimal dps pet, which would not be a problem if you had a warrior, mage, paladin or druid for those instead.

---

It's a comparison to a pvp perspective of wow because both bards and hunters largely ignored anything that would ordinarily stop anyone else's damage.

I brought this up because the very idea of having a class that can pull similar dps to the best dd jobs attacking a punching bag, but no penalization for moving is a broken concept in a game where all other classes either have the majority of their damage put on hold because a mechanic made them move (BLM), or a circle on the ground says 'gtfo of kissing range' (MNK, DRG, NIN).

For quite some time, BRD players have been obviously complaining about their lack of damage as ARR went on too.

Square's choice to give them the damage they wanted, but take away the freedom to do it while bunnyhopping around between 5-30y away via a toggled ability was a choice I respect, and all of the above is why. That's all I wanted to say.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

Why do they need more downsides when they already have inherently lower weapon damage on top of a 15% damage loss when they use 2/3 of their support songs, a damage drop which no other class gets?

---

That's one of the things I agree should be changed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

Why do they need to be punished to stand still and have cast times just to try to make up that gap in inherently lower damage?

---

See above. If they were putting out MNK quality damage, but from 30y away, while running around the ominous circles or the ground, it would be the DD job everyone would want more of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fanservice

Square's choice to give them the damage they wanted, but take away the freedom to do it while bunnyhopping around between 5-30y away via a toggled ability was a choice I respect, and all of the above is why. That's all I wanted to say.

---

It's a choice you respect because you don't play a Bard.

Cast times affect a lot more on a Bard than their mobility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fanservice

Square's choice to give them the damage they wanted, but take away the freedom to do it while bunnyhopping around between 5-30y away via a toggled ability was a choice I respect, and all of the above is why. That's all I wanted to say.

---

They didn't give us the damage we wanted, in fact our damage is about on par with where it was prior to 3.0 (doubled damage, but all jobs were doubled some jobs more than doubled, so there really was no increase) and we have to use a crappy stance in-order to do what we were doing in 2.5.

It doesn't make any sense. People have no idea what they're talking about, the job didn't get a damage increase for the most part our damage is exactly the same, but we're forced into casting times and immobility just so we can do THE SAME DAMAGE.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

It's a choice you respect because you don't play a Bard.

---

Not my only character. I have played a BRD.

I still respect the idea, even if the execution needs work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

Cast times affect a lot more on a Bard than their mobility.

---

I am aware of the proc issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Panasync

They didn't give us the damage we wanted, in fact our damage is about on par with where it was prior to 3.0 (doubled damage, but all jobs were doubled some jobs more than doubled, so there really was no increase) and we have to use a crappy stance in-order to do what we were doing in 2.5.

It doesn't make any sense. People have no idea what they're talking about, the job didn't get a damage increase for the most part our damage is exactly the same, but we're forced into casting times and immobility just so we can do THE SAME DAMAGE.

---

Saying it again: I respect the IDEA. How it was executed down to the numbers is a different matter.

I personally have no problems with BRDs dealing MNK/DRG/BLM damage tomorrow, as long as they're not bunny-hopping around mechanics, and spamming instants from 20y+ away.