The Death Of CC

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

A WHM that sleeps gives themselves a massive window in which to DPS. I like to sleep in lower level dungeons with single target DPS, then I can almost exclusively DPS because the damage taken by the tank from a single mob is trivial. Of course, there are bad WAR's that like to break my sleep despite the fact that they don't need to generate any more threat on slept mobs, so I'll just sit back and heal only instead of DPS, since they'll never learn...

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Your most effective DPS on trash from 45 onwards is holy, which is also your most effective CC. I don't think someone who is clearly playing badly has anything to teach. You're all shooting yourself in the foot by sticking to the simply wrong claim that slept trash no longer gain hate.

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Originally Posted by Seryl199

A WHM that sleeps gives themselves a massive window in which to DPS. I like to sleep in lower level dungeons with single target DPS, then I can almost exclusively DPS because the damage taken by the tank from a single mob is trivial. Of course, there are bad WAR's that like to break my sleep despite the fact that they don't need to generate any more threat on slept mobs, so I'll just sit back and heal only instead of DPS, since they'll never learn...

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Slept mobs can generate enmity if players happen to apply DoT before the players cast sleep, however the tank can opt using flash instead of waking them out simply in being ignorant, full of themself, calling everybody to be inferior in not looking what's the current party need the most and blend in with society..

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Your most effective DPS on trash from 45 onwards is holy, which is also your most effective CC. I don't think someone who is clearly playing badly has anything to teach. You're all shooting yourself in the foot by sticking to the simply wrong claim that slept trash no longer gain hate.

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Check my post, I stated that I'd do that in lower level dungeons. There are only two leveling dungeons pre-50 that I can use Holy in, and I do so with pleasure. If I'm using Repose, there's probably a reason. Either I'm trying to reduce the amount of damage the tank is taking to maximize DPS, reducing the overall time spent in the run (this is to your benefit, if Overpower is so empowering for you to trivialize that effort, then by all means have a blast, just don't expect me to try any harder for you), or the tank is struggling with healing enmity. A slept mob does not incur enmity from healing. This is a fact. When I'm peeling mobs from the tank because they haven't the slightest idea how Flash or Overpower works, and they struggle to get that mob back, all while the main target starts ping ponging between the DPS, you can bet I'm going to do my best to calm the situation down, and a well placed Repose or two can do just that.

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Originally Posted by lvlagmarink

Slept mobs can generate enmity if players happen to apply DoT before the players cast sleep, however the tank can opt using flash instead of waking them out simply in being ignorant, full of themself, calling everybody to be inferior in not looking what's the current party need the most and blend in with society..

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This is true, what I meant is that my healing will not incur any enmity on the mob while it's slept. I tend to pre-cast Repose to land on my first target just as all the mobs are grouped together, followed by Swiftcast > Repose on the next, so DPS usually aren't building enmity under my sleeps.

Used to be able to Freeze/root the mobs you couldn't sleep, can't even do that anymore. Goodbye old MMO traditions.

I shoulda paid attention to my own topic.

First off, I'm actually a white mage, second, I know the importance of short CC, and third, it's been kind of a revelation that basically the whole dang population thinks that grouping things up and AoEing them down is the only way to play. I mentioned being annoyed at everything being unsleepable a couple times in pugs and people had a similar "lol y" reaction, which was understandable when people were running things over and over and over and over and over for their relic quests, but seems oddly dismissive considering how long CC has a proud tradition rooted in MMOs.

I suppose that's the thing, though; it's a defensive measure. At it's core, all CC is used to stop enemies from either hurting you more than you can handle, or stopping them from firing off abilities that would make the fight more difficult. Short CCs, our stun/silence/pacification, are excellent interrupters and can be used to great effect to get a lot of breathing room. What I object to is the devaluation(by complete and total removal) of long CC in dungeons. While I have a videogame personal stake in this because a whole skill slot is taken up by something that doesn't get a lot of use anymore, I also dislike that it's another push towards grabbing everything and AoEing it, even after several AoEs got hella nerfed(BTW: Holy is no longer our best offensive skill).

There's a finesse and strategy missing when you can't hard lock a mob, because since the first cast it's learned decision made in and of itself. "What thing should I sleep," or "What things should we leave slept" are very important questions when dealing with long mezzes, because some enemies are more advantageous to be kept out than others. The ones that do the most damage, the ones that heal, the ones that can debuff you... you're gonna want those guys gone first, and figuring out which one to sleep and which one to attack first is a 2 step decision that requires knowledge of what things do. The finesse, of course, is in making sure to not hit things that are slept that you want kept slept, which sure sounds easy but is harder than you might remember; cause some things still need to be AoEd even if one thing is asleep. Pulling stuff away so that people can use their full power, while still keeping the thing that's slept angry at you, is a tank skill that requires some practice. That isn't to say tanks don't learn positioning and DPS don't learn restraint already, but dealing with CC is a skillset on its own that makes the game feel more empty when its gone.

Overall I just miss it. I do play in a non-standard group(every dungeon done with 2 tanks, 1 dps) so I'm sure I feel the effect more than most others. We have to focus fire because there's only one of us who does DPS style... uh... DPS. We haven't had problems in the dungeons where you can't sleep, but it's something I miss every time I see that full resist fire off, and man is it fun in the overworld. I'd love to see it come back in dungeons again, although I know this playerbase probably won't care unless it lets them AoE sleep rooms again to skip pulls.

unless you're like level 27 and your tank cant seem to do basic pulls (or you got some silly DPS proximity pullling random mobs) you should not even be thinking of using Sleep. Waste of MP.

It may be useful in dungeons where you are missing a tank/healer, or you're doing a challenge run (4DPS, no heals, no tanks, ect ect) but generally speaking any strategy where you're sleeping mobs is easily outdone by doing pretty much anything else.

For what it's worth, as someone who leveled as BLM, Sleep was pretty darn useful in solo content, especially as a squishy class.

I always felt sleep was a solo survival tool rather than a group utility spell.

Accidentally aggroing mobs while leveling, specially early on before you get gear worth a damn, Sleep can save your life.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

it's been kind of a revelation that basically the whole dang population thinks that grouping things up and AoEing them down is the only way to play.

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Its kinda funny cos the new dungeon mobs have way too much HP to bother trying to AoE down unless your whole party is i70+. Takes too bloody long, TP classes just run dry before killing anything.
Tis fine for Infinite Resource BLMs and SMNs though ....

Soon everything will be immune to everything.
Also yes sleep can save ur life, playing for days on end without sleeping can probably make u really sick. Jk ik what u mean xp