If the Ascians are behind all of the Astral Eras, doesn't that mean they led mankind to fight one another and bring about the first Umbral Era and end the Age of the Gods? That seems like a lot of orchestration to get a whole bunch of people to hate one another to go to full war.
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06-02-2015, 11:01 AMWyrahFhurrst
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06-02-2015, 05:21 PMGrayve
Well, this is all fasinating, but I was wondering about the Echo, which may not be related. What is its source? It seems clear that the Ascians have it as well, as does Iceheart and the Sahagin Priest (though perhaps the Ascians gave it to them both?). All of which seem to point to it not coming from either Hyd or Zodiarc, and Midgardsomr doesn't remove it, or even seem to be concerned with it. So, who or what is it from? And if both Hyd and Zodiarc can grant it, then doesn't that mean they have more in common then we might think?
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06-02-2015, 05:55 PMAnonymooseOur Echo might have come from the Mothercrystal, but we now have enough information to question if the Echo has any one source at all. The gift may simply be, for lack of a better word, jailbreaking the soul and allowing it far more sensitivity and freedom than any soul fettered to "reality" has any business having. How the jailbreak occurs might be incidental compared to that it has occurred.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grayve
The "World of Light" seems to require the aether comprising physical existence to stay in balance, and the Ascians' powers are supportive of Chaos. Hydaelyn has good reason to unbind a few champions within her reality so they can better act in defense of it, and the Ascians have good reason to fear the Light's equivalent of their strengths.
If the Echo truly is akin to the immortality of the Ascians, both being extreme cases of a jailbroken soul transcending, then there are many ways it could have happened. The fact that Elidibus seems to have enabled Wuur to use the gift is the real wrench in the works; it shifts the act of jailbreaking to a separate tier than simply Great Crystals and/or Gods. -
06-02-2015, 06:33 PMGrayve
Well, there are clearly tiers of power to the Echo. Compare the WoL to Minfilia, or Iceheart. Perhaps its matter of training and skill, that must be unlocked (lore reason for levels?!). And, perhaps the two Ascians that are from 'our world' started out with Hyd's echo before converting to Zodiarcs, and that is why they are 'different.'
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06-03-2015, 11:09 PMSuzakuCMX
So what does Midgardsomr have to do with all of this? Didn't he remove Hydaelyn's blessing from the WoL so they could be free and choose for themselves?
1. How can he resurrect?
2. How can he remove Hydaelyn's blessing?
3. Why did he remove Hydaelyn's blessing?
As for the Ascians, I agree that Elidibus seems to think the WoL will want to help him when they discover a "truth." But I also remember from 1.0 when we saw an Ascian and they were a creepy reaper looking thing -- I wonder if that's been retconned or if that's still their "true" form, and if it is their true form, maybe they are keepers of souls and Zodiark is a second world where the dead go to, sort of like a "heaven." But since Zodiark is inactive, people instead return to the aether and fuel Hydaelyn's "immortality" so she can live forever.
I'm also wondering why the Ascians want the beastmen and etc. to summon primals -- how does that fit into their goal? The Scions and company seem to think that sapping the aether from Hydaelyn kills the planet, so what does that have to do with resurrecting Zodiark? -
06-03-2015, 11:41 PMEnkidohWell, I'm still not entirely convinced he actually did do it for that reason, and has for more malevolent goals for us (I mean, look at him, every time he's spoken it's to belittle, taunt and put down the player - the last scene of 2.55 has him smirking as we stand at the Gates of Judgement and tells us in no uncertain terms that Ishgard will not bring sanctuary to us but just "Delusion, despair and death." After all, he only removed the Blessing of Light from us because it stopped him killing us outright which is what he tried to at first, and which his massive ego wouldn't allow.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
As for how he managed to strip the Blessing, other than the most common line of reasoning is that he actually did it under Hydaelyn's orders as a sort of perverse test of our resolve (which I don't buy - the fact it materialized to stop him attacking us kind of throws that idea out the window), I think the most likely option is because the Crystals were taken from defeated enemies (including the Primals), he probably could therefore manipulate it in any way he chose, which is exactly what he's done.
And given the fact that Nabrielies just happened to show up at the Rising Stones not long after this happens smugly declaring "the Light no longer protects this place," I suspect Midgard's stripping of the Blessing of Light was all a manipulation by the Ascians, which even Midgard probably isn't aware of. But I guess we'll find out.
Lahabrea explained the reason for this back during his big 'the reason you suck' speech in the Praetorium after destroying the Ultima Weapon - to cause Zodairk's rebirth requires an enormous amount of 'chaotic energy' (as he terms it), which the summoning of the Primals increases.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
He doesn't go into detail exactly how this works, only that the existence of the Primals is essential to it, and that the Scions and the Warrior of Light were stubborn thorns in his side as a result (due to, you know, always killing the Primals whenever they're summoned). Either way, the mechanics of exactly how Primal summoning fits into the Ascians Zodiark revival plan will most likely be revealed as the story progresses. -
06-03-2015, 11:41 PMAnonymooseMidgardsormr has a very old, very powerful, currently very lacking in details pact with Hydaelyn.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
Unknown. His "soul orb" showed up and said he was going to drink of Hydaelyn's body (the planet's aether) to fashion a new frame. That's all we know. It seems like he may have a different type of immortality than that of the Ascians (or at the very least that they can't make the same use of immortality, considering beings of the Darkness don't mesh with the Light's lifestream). Perhaps that's part of the Echo's transcendence, for all we know.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
Unknown. The Blessing of Light basically allowed us to materialize and utilize the Crystals of Light, and the Crystals of Light were basically a window that allowed Her to channel Her power into this realm to act as our guardian. He saw this as a problem, and nipped said problem in the bud by (somehow) blocking the Blessing (de-materializing the Crystals of Light).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
He thinks that without Hydaelyn holding our hand and protecting us, we're worthless. He thinks we're unworthy of the Echo, and damn unworthy of the Blessing. He sees us as pretenders - porters of borrowed power that do little but cost Her dearly. And Her protection of us indeed has cost Her dearly; she grows dim. But Hydaelyn won't let him kill us and his covenant somehow now binds him to us - and he's grumpy about it. Midgardsormr wants us to stand on our own or die trying; this is basically a trial for him, and he's going to stand on the sidelines and belittle us until we prove we're worth better (which I assume is character development of 3.0).Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
Square Enix didn't spend all that time sculpting that model to use it once and trash it. Please look forward do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
Pretty much. Destabilizing the aether weakens the laws that govern reality. The second coming of Zodiark requires Chaos to reign. I'm sure you can see how those two facts intertwine without much more explanation that that.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuzakuCMX
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06-04-2015, 12:08 AMSuzakuCMXI'm wondering if that's truly the case if Elidibris thinks the WoL would side with him if they were stronger with the Echo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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06-04-2015, 12:08 AMFenralIt's used in ARR already, just not how you'd expect. Watch what happens to the area Angra Mainyu selects with his roulette...Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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06-04-2015, 12:58 AMNalienUnless you're talking about something else I've missed, isn't that the Kum Kum (from the Amon fight) model holding a scythe, rather than a 1.0 Ascian?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fenral