Well voidsent as a creature type eat aether by definition, that's one of the primary means by which people like to try and shoot down my theory. Atomos is the only voidsent we've seen behave in this manner though; I don't believe we've seen any other voidsent consume aether just to strengthen and heal themselves. We have seen Garuda and Bahamut do it, but I'm sure someone will find another reason for why that doesn't suggest a link.Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
To be honest the fact that we have a Bahamut Prime and an Atomos Prime should have raised questions. It's not like the lore team to throw us bones like that and not have them mean something. Most people honestly just seem to try and shut the theory down entirely because of Koji's voidsent statement, even though Koji is well known for being cryptic and giving half truths in an effort to avoid spoilers.
If Atomos isn't a primal then I would like to know why he and Bahamut both have a Prime and what 'Prime' even means in the context of FFXIV's universe. Do other primals have Primes? Can other voidsent have Primes?
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05-30-2015, 07:17 AMAlberel
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05-30-2015, 07:22 AMWyrahFhurrstI would be more inclined to think this is correct than supposing that the Atomos, a voidsent, gathered followers and became a primal. Just because it has similarities to primals doesn't make it one if it doesn't meet the criteria of worship and aether for summoning. Like you said, it's more likely that Atomos Prime is a type of Atomos that has similarities to a primal, but is still ultimately a voidsent, as Koji said.Quote:
Originally Posted by lololink
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05-30-2015, 09:55 AMKaiser-Ace
I also like to point out that we still don't have a concrete definition of "Primal" in relation to a sentient being inside that physical manifestation.
We assume primals need followers to summon them because thats how we've seen it done. We can conclude that it doesn't need to be a deiety to summon it though. We also know the normal rules don't apply in the void.
So who's to say that the rules ofa primal's existence aren't different there as well. Perhaps the howling atmoses them selves were the "primals" and the prime crystal summoned then via its own aeither as a last resort
I submit that a primal is simply any aeitheric construct summoned via a crystal conduit to channel and focus the large amounts of external aethier needed to summon them.
We know after all that summing more than an Egi via the allagan method WILL kill us. -
05-30-2015, 10:37 AMSamcaesarWait, can you tell tell me where we learn this? I thought we summoned an Egi simply because it's controllable, just the pure essence of the primal so that it takes a manifestation of it, albeit smaller, and doesn't have the personality most primals have?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiser-Ace
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05-30-2015, 11:13 AMKaiser-AceThe Conjuror Questline states if you use more aether than you have it will kill you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Samcaesar
Thaumaturge quest line implies the same is true in Thaumaturgy because it draws directly from one's own aether.
Summoning via the Allag Method is using a defeated primal's lingering essence and our own aether to make the aetheric construct know as an egi which is only a fraction of the true primals power.
The fact that it takes a dozen to several hundred worshipers to summon a prim depending on it's strength via the ascian method which is funneling the worship (read aethier) of the subjects into a large crystal.
So considering how much it takes to summon just the normal primals it would easily drain us to death several times over. So the Allag method uses a line person's aethir for an egi but the ascian method dodges that risk by using a crystal to channel energy from multiple followers for the summoning.
Now let's say some other adventurers tossed you some aethier (aka limit break) and you could possibly summon the full primal for just long enough to fire its supper attack a dissipate. -
05-30-2015, 02:32 PMWyrahFhurrst
The Summoner quest line explicitly states that the Egi are a manageable size. A larger Egi may still be manageable, but could become unruly. It wouldn't kill us. The mana it takes to perform an Egi Summoning is but a portion of our overall mana, or aether reserves. Yes, overusing our aether reserves would kill us, but more than an Egi killing us? Unlikely. Now a full Primal Summoning is impossible for a Summoner, mainly because while an individual can have enough worship (lookin' at you, Greg), an individual requires crystals because one's own aetheric reserves are not great enough to perform the Summoning alone. Could a level 100 Summoner do it with ilvl100billion and tonze upon tonze of piety materia melded in? Maybe? But to claim that for a single Summoner to summon something greater than an Egi would cause death, I think is too far.
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05-30-2015, 08:02 PMKaiser-AceI would go as far as to say a Summoner with a large manna reserve could summon multiple Egis at once or one with a strong enough will could summon a Great Egi (Like an Elder Primal's Egi) but summoning past the Egi phase IS attempting to summon the full primal. And no single being can summon a primal with out a large crystal conduite. The Allagain Method doesn't use Crystal Conduits because Egis can be summoned with one's own Aether. Now if we used the Ascian method and a Crystal Conduite of large enough proportions then we could likely summon a full primal single handedly. The flaw in that being that a full primal has it's own will and probably wouldn't appreciate being given orders.Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
But that is the ultimate difference in the Allagain and Ascian methods, being the Absence and Presence of Crystals to use as summoning conduits. With out the Crystals we would most certainly die very painful deaths by so much as attempting to single handedly summon a full primal. -
05-31-2015, 06:30 AMWyrahFhurrst
I think you're presuming that there's a difference between aether and crystals, which is incorrect. When Louisoix tried to summon the Twelve, there were no crystals, and subsequently when he became a primal there were still no crystals. Personal and external aether shouldn't be the defining points of the two summoning methods. I disagree that there should be a differentiation at all. We provide less aether and therefore a smaller, more controllable size for the Primal, which we call the Egi. It has the Primal's own energy in it, instead of worship, but if we interpret those two to be similar, then the only differentiation between these two methods is the size of the summoned Primal. Further, during the summoning animation, the Summoner crystallizes his aether into three crystals that float around him. This shows us that we do still use a "crystal conduit" as you put it. These crystals, and the crystals used during a regular primal summoning, are what gives the Primal its mass. Therefore, I believe that we can conclude that aether should not be a defining point for differentiation, if there should be any differentiation at all.
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05-31-2015, 06:45 AMKaiser-AceThe Crystal is a Conduit FOR the Aether, Louisoux didn't use either the allagain or ascian methods, he used the symbols of the twelve as the focusing conduites for mass prayer. How ever him turning into Phoenix was not the original idea it was a last resort back up plan that he literally came up with on the spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by WyrahFhurrst
And again we still have no idea what primals really are, I'm just using what I've found out so far on the properties of summoning and the rules and laws of magic to come up with a theory. I've made the distinguishment between the Ascian Method which summons the Full God (Or desired being in Gilgamesh's case) and the Allagain method which summons a lesser incarnation of that God due to their fundamentally different properties, Ultimately a summoning is a summoning be it a Beast Tribe Primal, a Summoner's Egi, or Arcanist's Carbuncle. It's how it's executed that's different.
Louisoux and Iceheart form the biggest unidentified variables at this point. I'll refer to it here out as the "Incarnate Method" where one literally becomes the primal it's self. A small difference is Iceheart lives afterwards while Louisoux does not. After becoming Phoenix his physical form dissipated into raw aetheric energy and he and the primal he created became one and the same. Iceheart how ever still lived after Shiva's defeat and The Primal Shiva and Lady Iceheart do have several different personality traits and even speech patterns.
So there seem to be three possible Summoning Methods that allow a primal type being to be called forth. But until we beat the answers out of the Ascians on what primals are to being with all I can do is use what evidence I have. That being Egis are literal fractions of true primals, a single summoner does not have the Aetheric ability to summon a primal on their own and live, Crystals seem to be required as a conduit to focus more than one beings prayer into usable aether in order to perform a full summoning, and the Incarnate summonings of Shiva and Phoenix used the summoner's physical body as a catalyst for the primal with an as yet unknown variable causing Iceheart to live but Louisoux to die.
The definition of conduit does not imply Crystals are anything but what they are. We've used them as Conduite BECAUSE they are crystallized Aether. Thus making them a perfect conduit for focusing the unharnessed aethir of various sources.
Edit: (Additional Data)
A possible variable in the Incarnate Method could be that Iceheart has the Echo and can thus keep her soul separate from the Soul of Shiva when performing the incarnate Summon. Louisoux did not have the echo but with that power it's self being filled with unknowns for the time being that idea is inconclusive until we have a better understanding of how the echo works. -
05-31-2015, 07:29 AMlololink
Err It could be possbile to summon a primal alone and not dying, it would just be super weak because so few aether was used.