I'm confused about Yoshi-P's thoughts on dps-check programs.

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Originally Posted by Amiantos

They are that immature. Bunch of special snowflakes are afraid of being called out on sucking.

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DPS meters bring out the worst in people. Ever play WoW? One of the absolute worst, and rudest game communities ever. People don't need another tool to enable them to be awful to others. It's not your place to "call out" anyone - that kind of behavior is toxic to the game.

Not the case in The Secret World Orspeth. Players in that that I've seen mostly use parsers as "self-improvement tools" of sorts and to share advice by finding problems. The community there is much more mature than the typical MMO though.

That being said, parsers can be used to shame people. But they can also be used to help people improve their play, which is very important in a game with many dps checks such as this one.

People really just need thicker skin and a drive to improve their play, and people need to be more mature and use parsers positively. That's up to the community to do though, and I do not trust this game's community to do any of those things, so I can't really blame SE for taking the safe route.

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Originally Posted by Orspeth

DPS meters bring out the worst in people. Ever play WoW? One of the absolute worst, and rudest game communities ever. People don't need another tool to enable them to be awful to others. It's not your place to "call out" anyone - that kind of behavior is toxic to the game.

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I played Vanilla WoW up til a few months before TBC came out to where I jumped ship to play one of the worst MMO's ever for a short period of time. People who say "It's toxic behavior" I don't buy it as to me MOBA communities are what toxic is. I've stated my opinion on something to monitor DPS before, I was and still am in support of it. It's not my job to hold a persons hand and spoon feed them through content. I used to main bard and for the longest time I thought I was decent but once I found out my numbers I owned up to my short comings, tried to improve then ultimately switched to Nin because I found it more fun. I never once tried to shrug off responsibility of my short comings.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

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I think you're forcing your comparisson too much. If you have 4 DPS, and you don't meet the DPS check of the fight, you really want to know why and which "gear" is failing in that "machine". In raid content (And I insist about RAID CONTENT), most of the groups use parsers. If you have a majority of people using it, then yes... it is obviously required to complete the objective at a faster rate. How do you know then that you need either food, pots, more gear, other stats, others melds? How do you measure individual improvement that adds up to the group's performance?

In a race, they give you the car. You know how to drive. You can actually SEE if you're going faster than others. In raid content, you're not. In the game, that doesn't happen. You can't see if their numbers are higher or lower than yours. At the end of the fight, when enrage hits, you'll be wondering why, what you did wrong. Was the other guy's fault? Was YOUR FAULT? will you ask a person that is actually doing better than you do get better? You're one out of 7 guys looking for the same objective.

I'm not saying it's a must for the 100% of the community either. But saying it's not required at all it's a nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Adire

Not the case in The Secret World Orspeth. Players in that that I've seen mostly use parsers as "self-improvement tools" of sorts and to share advice by finding problems. The community there is much more mature than the typical MMO though.

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I can't say about Secret World - I've only played it briefly - very neat looking game! In Wow though, meters encouraged horrible behavior. I played Lotro for 6 or 7 years though, no meters in that game, but things still died in a timely fashion. I would hate for this game to get parsers, for fear of what it might do. Such a thing should definitely only show ones own numbers - and no others.

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Originally Posted by kyuven

Again, let me restate:
Parsers are a tool, but they are absolutely not required in order to complete the objective.
And I wish people would stop acting like they are.

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And where in my post did I as much as imply that parsers were "required in order to complete the objective"? Parsers can be helpful for figuring out whether you are, or somebody else is, doing something wrong and there is room for improvement. That's all I said, and it's hardly untrue, is it?

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Originally Posted by maTyaR

SE probably does not want to take any responsibility from the community

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^ that's the issue right there. That they don't seem to want to take any responsibility with anything. Duty Finder and roulettes? "Playstyle differences" - couldn't be more vague, but at least they don't have to pick a side (and ofc that exactly is root of all such debates, speedruns and cutscenes and everything). Bots? "Observe" - to try and get a grip on their network, doesn't matter that they continue to affect the economy in the meantime. RMT? Well, there is a way to blacklist them, there is a way to decline unwanted friend requests, there is a special team assigned to it - the fact they're all way too cumbersome and inadequate is a minor detail nobody should notice. By the way noticing things - the fact that some textures are so horrid they make anyone spotting them want to puke, especially up close? Well, just zoom out and it'll be ok... I suppose the list could go on a bit more. While I understand them not wanting to be sued for preposterous reasons, I can't agree with them not taking matters into their own hands.

As for parsers: obviously, as an official representative of SE, he can't (and won't, and shouldn't either) give the thumbs-up to using 3rd party apps to tamper with their product. Regardless of how much or how little actual "datamining" it would do. Also, as the "head" of the entire game, I suppose he is aware how the general atmosphere is, how quickly and often how unreasonably debates can spark, which then quickly deteriorate into sh××storms - overall a toxic environment, a negative atmosphere, a bad experience for the players. Something that he(/they) wouldn't want to contribute to, of course. But being a gamer himself, and I assume even just as a regular guy, he does understand the reasons and knows where or why certain tools can be beneficiary - but until the official mindset is changed, he can't really speak freely about it.

Of course, there are several available options to choose from, but I guess they all need serious discussions, planning, work. They could choose to implement parsers in endgame raids only - what would fall into that category though? Coils (and Alexander) obviously; but what about primals? Which ones? Crystal Tower (and its successor)? Anything else? Or perhaps restrict it even more and make it available only in fights with actual DPS checks? Or, they could add a parser - and make it so that everyone only sees their own data. Of course, it's easy to be shared and talked about in chat anyway, so would it make sense at all? Maybe make it available only when signing up for a duty as a full party (whether that means 4/4 or 8/8), like a switch that can be flipped up? Maybe something else I can't even think of right now?

In the end though, all of them comes down to setting up rules about how to go on about it, how not to aggravate other players, etc - basically taking responsibility, again. And making sure due punishments are served (in due time), which means GMs having even more work on their hands... And I think it's a safe bet (especially with the constant reminders of how "small" the team is) that their forces are already spread thin, so...

On a personal note, I really don't see a parser being necessary anywhere except for endgame raids - something only the really pros do seriously, meaning, I'm sure, that they are well aware of any relevant data and info anyway. The odd primal, perhaps, that is a DPS check? It's not like it's content that takes weeks to get used to, with whatever different lockouts on it too. And while at it, you want to put DPS under directed pressure - how about healers and tanks then? Pretty sure they too have similar data that could be ... scrutinised. HP restores, debuff removal, enmity generation, just to name a few.



(KINDLY HAVE THE CHARACTER LIMIT REMOVED, IT HINDERS THE ABILITY TO PROPERLY EXPRESS THOUGHTS. EVEN MY FIRST PARAGRAPH IS LONGER THAN 1K, I'M SORRY I'M ELABORATE. THANK YOU.)

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Originally Posted by Zaft

No, that is exactly the reason. This problem existed in FFXI and has followed us to FFXIV. Even the mere mention that somebody is "playing wrong" invokes anger and riots in the community. WAR/WHM using a spear and casting Banish? How dare you tell me how to play my game, it's my $12 a month

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There's a lot of conjecture about how parsers make WoW toxic but the only thing I know for certain is that I've never seen a community so hostile to feedback and improvement as the one in this game. People are deathly afraid and anxious of accountability to the point where I wonder how they function in society. What happens when their boss tells them how to do work? Or if someone yells at them on the road?

What are people afraid of? If you play your job properly no one has any reason to be toxic.

Wow used to have a side quest (maybe not anymore i dont play anymore) where you would earn medals for completing a certain role solo. For tanks role you had to protect a npc while they killed mobs, dps had a time limit to kill geoups of mobs and for healers you had to keep a group alive while npcs beat groups of mobs. If ffxiv had something like this you ciuld see how well your dps/healing/tanking is without a parser and still be learning through a minigame (gold saucer comes to mjnd as a place to have this type of thing)

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Originally Posted by Dioptase

Wow used to have a side quest (maybe not anymore i dont play anymore) where you would earn medals for completing a certain role solo. For tanks role you had to protect a npc while they killed mobs, dps had a time limit to kill geoups of mobs and for healers you had to keep a group alive while npcs beat groups of mobs. If ffxiv had something like this you ciuld see how well your dps/healing/tanking is without a parser and still be learning through a minigame (gold saucer comes to mjnd as a place to have this type of thing)

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yeah its still there its called proving grounds. and to enter heroic dungeons (current dungeons) you need at least silver medal for the role you're queuing for.

it won't happen here. wish it would, but look around you.