Fey Light in FCoB

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Originally Posted by Menae

It's not, though. If you are losing uptime on your most efficient abilities, you do less damage per TP.

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buut if you use the same abilities while on haste... >.> you do more damage per time.

You could, like someone suggested, simply do nothing during the haste to "simulate" lower haste. But...like...what is the point of the haste buff then...?

Essentially, what it boils down to is, if you ever run out of TP, skill speed is utterly worthless to you, unless it facilitates some mechanical timer sync (such as maybe going through your buff rotations tighter). So at best it does...nothing. This includes static skill speed.

The simplest explanation I can give for those that doubt the math is...

1. Everyone starts with 1000 TP.
2. Everyone regens TP at the same speed.
3. At any given time the maximum amount of TP you can spend is 1000+TP/sec
4. Once you "run out of TP", regardless of how fast you've run out of TP (whether it took 1 sec or 1000 sec), your total TP consumption is 1000+TP/sec
5. At this point, your damage is (1000+TP/sec)*(DPTP, or TP efficiency)
6. Therefore your damage done is dependent only on TP efficiency, NOT dps or haste.

I also want to clarify I'm not advocating whether Fey Light or not is "better". I'm simply clarifying that it is definitely possible to lose dps with more haste, if you end up using lower TP efficient abilities.

Guys if you remember...this is literally the main reason monks/dragoons etc. of old stopped using Fracture and Impulse Drive...while a technical dps increase it simply wasn't efficient enough to use.

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

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The issue with your argument is that you assume the same rotation at completely drained TP the person is spamming an ability every 3 seconds with that TP tick, in the same rotation they would be using with full TP.

Yes, blind button mash in preprogrammed order will be a dps loss at tapped out TP, but it can be a modest gain from that extra buffed hit.

Yes I mentioned this as well. You gain an extra attack in a cooldown window roughly every 14-15% haste. Unclear whether that impact is worth the amount of TP efficiency lost from well, doing more abilities outside of that.

If you play what we'll assume is "smartly" and pool TP for cooldown phases, then its still a wash, and imo delaying your CDs to line up with fey light is probably not worth it unless it is less than a few seconds.

Haste is never a dps loss, and the reason drg and monk don't use fracture is it doesn't really fit into our rotation without messing up our own buff/debuff/dot timers. Plus it is less potency/tp than our other abilities. If you do become TP starved, you should be focusing on keeping dots ticking anyway until invig/goad is ready.

Haste also means you burst more so can push phases faster.

SCH pets have their place AND time. IIRC on our T11 static from way back when, our sch would have Selene out until only we started DPSing on the EGG, then he'd SC Eos out for the extra magic mitigation on first cloud, and the rest of the fight. On T10 he also switched Selene to Eos after 2nd adds to buffer.

Well actually with increased skill speed going from 1000 to 0 is less attacks. Every 3 seconds you recover 60 tp. So if at 4 minutes you use all your tp then you just used 5800 tp (1000base + 4800[ 4min= 240secs ÷ 3 sec x 60tp per tick] excluding invig cause it doesn't affect the point I'm making) vs 4600 in only 3 minutes. Now if the monk sits there tp starved until 4 minutes then he did the same amount of attacks and damage and what was the point of using selene at all then.
the bard has to be willing to play paeon when needed to make it a dps increase or the boss/enemy needs to die before tp is depleted. Almost forgot, or use to help with a dps check/push a phase.

Long story short, your getting in more attacks in less time which means in that time you have gained less natural tp ticks, so less tp to use overall

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

Well actually with increased skill speed going from 1000 to 0 is less attacks. Every 3 seconds you recover 60 tp. So if at 4 minutes you use all your tp then you just used 5800 tp (1000base + 4800[ 4min= 240secs ÷ 3 sec x 60tp per tick] excluding invig cause it doesn't affect the point I'm making) vs 4600 in only 3 minutes. Now if the monk sits there tp starved until 4 minutes then he did the same amount of attacks and damage and what was the point of using selene at all then.
the bard has to be willing to play paeon when needed to make it a dps increase or the boss/enemy needs to die before tp is depleted. Almost forgot, or use to help with a dps check/push a phase.

Long story short, your getting in more attacks in less time which means in that time you have gained less natural tp ticks, so less tp to use overall

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1. You cannot compare 4 minutes of no haste to only 3 minutes haste they are two different amount of times.
2. Underlined bit, that is point that is being made contrary to those claiming it is a dps loss when it isn't.

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Originally Posted by Menae

What PBC (PandaBearCat) is saying is that since your most TP efficient abilities tend to be DoTs of fixed durations that aren't impacted by haste, as your haste increases these abilities become smaller proportions of your damage. This is fine if you don't run out of TP, because you are still using them as often as possible. However, if you DO run out of TP and have to delay them to wait for a TP tick, you are losing damage that you wouldn't be if you hadn't TP starved yourself. Theoretically this shouldn't happen (because you can just slow your pace down to your unhasted levels), but if you hit a button every time you can and as a result run out of TP, it's a possibility.

DpCT is short for Damage per Cast Time. It's how much damage something does versus how long it takes to execute. Holy (200 potency) does more damage than Stone II (170 potency) to a single target, but because Holy takes 20% longer to cast and only does about 17% more damage, it's less DpCT to a single target. (This is just an example because I know the potency and cast times off the top of my head, please don't Holy single targets without a damn good reason) For any ability which is instant but on the GCD, you use your GCD as the cast time, because that's how long it locks you out of doing other stuff. There's a little more nuance in here for off GCDs and abilities which animation lock you, but the basic idea is damage per time spent executing. It's not quite the same as DPS because some abilities - DoTs - have way better DpCT than they do DPS. If I do 1 damage per potency, and a DoT does 300 potency over 10 seconds, it's only 30 DPS but 300 DpCT.

DpTP is much simpler. It's just damage per TP spent. An attack that does 200 damage for 100 TP has better DpTP than one that does 400 damage for 400 TP.

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Yes, DoTs and DoT heavy classes(BRD/SMN/NIN) are the exception to the rule and I concede to that fact since Dot are not affected by SkS/SpS and therefore not affected by haste until the expansion. But for your specific example:

With poisons and slashing debuffs applied

Mutilate: 5.490/tp <-
Shadow Fang: 5.769/tp
Aeolian Edge: 5.202/tp <-
Dancing Edge: 5.032/tp

You can substitute those 2 mutilates for 1 Aeolian Edge Combo and lose a whopping 5 whole percent for that that amount of 170 tp spent.

I wasn't comparing haste in particular. I Was referring to skill speed in general and tp drain during a normal fight without a resource to replenish . The times are irrelevant to the point and are only there to show some kind of number.

The point: several are posting that 1000tp to 0 is the same attacks regardless of increased ss (probably could had quoted some of them). Well that isn't true. It's the same number of attack in the same time period (I.e. 4min vs 4min) but not from 1000tp to 0 . The op stated they were asked to not use fey light I assume because the bard didn't want to play more paeon, which is why I did a 4min vs 3 min comparison. Without a paeon/goad tp will be depleted faster than without the extra ss in this scenario and no benefit will be gained from fey light.

Basically I'm countering whoever said use it anyway and let the melee throttle their dps until goad or invig. If they did that then they just negated the benefit of you using fey light so what's the point at all then. (other than pushing extra dps at a specific time)

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

Long story short, your getting in more attacks in less time which means in that time you have gained less natural tp ticks, so less tp to use overall

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If you have 940 TP or less every 3 seconds for the entire fight, you will get the same amount of TP regeneration for the same amount of time, period.

If you get to the point where you can use Invigorate without wasting any TP 10 seconds faster, then that's 10 seconds each successive Invigorate happens, and 10 seconds you're more likely to get an extra one in, or burn up the TP from it before the end of the fight.

Also, skill speed affects speed of autoattacks, which are 25-30% of your damage.