Remembrance of Old; A Galka's Tale of Character Uniqueness

I posted this in another thread but I'll paste it here:

Personally when I play Pugilist it is completely different from how I play Marauder, and that's different from how I play Gladiator. Then again I try to use most of a class's native skills as possible as those are meant for that class. Marauder has a lot of conal AoE attacks, Pugilist is more of a one-on-one fighter and Gladiator is decidedly a tank class not to mention the Sentinel abilities that make it unique in its own right. I would heavily suggest against a Lancer tanking simply because they have no native enmity generation skills and not only that, they tend to have more native enmity mitigation skills if anything. Sure a Gladiator can DD but I really wouldn't suggest it too heavily as they don't have tons of good high DPS skills natively. You can borrow skills from other classes but it still wouldn't be as effective as say a Pugilist.

There will always be skills that are universally useful (Second Wind, Cure, Feint, Bloodbath, Raging Strike) but to acquire the more potent versions of them you have to climb pretty far up the other classes. The only way everyone's going to have the same skills in end-game is if everyone levels everything to 50. As it stands now people are still different in the pools of skills they have based on what classes they chose to level first and further.

As others have said, it's not like there weren't any cookie-cutter builds in XI that you HAD to follow or else you'd be shunned from parties. In XIV there's much more grey area between "good" and "bad" builds. Sure there will always be cookie-cutter builds but here you can deviate a bit more without being shunned from groups.

/signed. I agree completely.

I understand people don't want this to be FFXI-2, but that does not mean you should avoid all of the best things about XI and implement things that are worse. Job uniqueness and the targeting system are just 2 examples of things they should have taken from XI instead of putting in a unique yet worse version.

They could actually kind of meld each system. Keep it so I can add abilities from different classes, but limit it. I should not be able to have both Sacrifice II and Cure II on my RNG to make it godly while I level. And I certainly should not be able to have high ranking abilities on a low rank job. I personally think it should be like the SJ's where I can only add abilities that have an optimal rank lower than the class I'm playing. It doesn't quite have to be 1/2 of my rank but at least 10-15 ranks below.

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No. My Samurai wasn't different from another Samurai other than the currently equipped gear. But as far as being different from the other roles? Yes.

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My argument is that you can fill different roles with the same classes. Not only are the different classes slightly different from each other (AoE exclusivity, Magic effectiveness, Lancer specific weaponskills, Quick Nock, etc.) but they can be different from other people from the same class (Defensive GLA vs. Offensive GLA). If you break it down to general roles in a party XI had a lot of jobs that served the same purpose (Buffers, Tanks, Damage Dealers, Healers). Also, classes aren't jobs as posted by some people here on the forums and in early development interviews and XI still suffered from "bandwagon samurais" precisely because of it's strict character growth system.

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I never said to cut, slash, and paste the old FFXI system into this version. I said that they should go back and try to improve on THAT system, rather than start from scratch with this one.

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Final Fantasy I
Growth: Leveling in a strict Job System
Battle: Strict turn based battle

Final Fantasy II
Growth: System completely dependent on the repetitive use of traits and abilities
Battle: Still strict turn based

Final Fantasy III
Growth: Early Job system
Battle: Still turn based

Final Fantasy IV
Growth: Strict Class system where characters and job were synonymous
Battle: Sort of a "hidden" Active Time Battle system

Final Fantasy V
Growth: Another Job System (in which you could take already learned abilities from other jobs)
Battle: Introduction of the "visible" Active Time Battle system

Final Fantasy VI
Growth: Esper/Relic system (Magic was learned from magicite/Espers abilities were learned from relics/leveling)
Battle: Active Time Battle system

Final Fantasy VII
Growth: Materia system (stats and abilities governed by a predetermined added/linked/equipped/leveled)
Battle: Active Time Battle system

Final Fantasy VIII
Growth: Draw/GF system (Magic potency, stats, and use based on resevoir /Abilites determined by GF)
Battle: Active Time Battle system

Final Fantasy IX
Growth: Defined roles abilities could be used either temporarily or learned permanently
Battle: Active Time Battle system

Final Fantasy X
Growth: Sphere Grid (locked at first, free forming later) somewhat strict between characters.
Battle: Conditional Turn-Based Battle system ("visible" turn based battle)

Final Fantasy XI
Growth: Job system/Subjob system (Custom ability and stat allocation at endgame via Merit Points)
Combat: Real Time combat (ability cool downs and weapon delays)

Final Fantasy XII
Growth: License Board (free forming but required other abilities to be unlocked first)
Combat: Gambit instructed Artificial Intelligence

Final Fantasy XIII
Growth: Crystarium- Similar to Sphere Grid unlocked at intervals in storyline progression
Combat: AI controlled ATB based primarily on timing and on the fly strict role changes

Final Fantasy XIV (as of the time of this writing)
Growth: Learn what you earn. Current Rank determines statistical effectiveness. Custom Stat Distribution
Combat: Real Time Combat based on stamina reserve

Final Fantasy XIV does improve on that system. Not only that, it delineated itself from it predecessors by borrowing aspects from other games and introducing it's own.

You can use abilities from other classes, customize your own stats, adjust your role on the fly, and use abilities as often as you want (given certain conditions are met). I no longer have to wait for hours to form a perfectly balanced group. We can balance ourselves according to the situation at hand.

The keyword is balance. If you are equipping the exact same spec as someone else in your party you aren't balanced. This goes for right now and end game. You should plan and conform to the needs of the situation. If you don't, you are dead weight. Any monster difficulties can be balanced to this system and there will always be different strategies that work better than others on certain monsters as well as more challenging monsters than others.

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I was trying to tell you that in FFXI the roles were unique in themselves by only accessing the abilities of it's own class, and half of another.

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I know this. I played XI. I know how it works. I'm telling you that your role in XIV is determined by you the player and the appropriate tools are given to you in order for you to be flexible. XI did not provide the tools in order for you to adapt to a dynamically changing environment that is unavoidable when dealing with other real life people in an MMO. XIV still creates the bond to your character as did XI. Any character can level any class/job. XIV improves on that by giving you the flexibility to adapt to the context of the situation.

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How would you say you're more unique now when in the future you'll see almost everyone with the same abilities in their action bar?

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Well, you're assuming that everyone will grow their characters to the XI equivalent of having a Maat's Cap. Does everyone in XI have a Maat's Cap? Even then, I only have a limited amount of action points and slots to delegate. So does everyone else. We are already tasked to pick and choose where we should put our investments. Where should I put my stats? What abilities should I equip? The party makeup has changed, how am I going to adapt? The difference between XI and XIV is that I can actually look at those questions with a positive outlook in XIV. There's something I can do, right now, to answer those questions. In XI, you were either locked, gimped by race/job/gear combo, or got to head back to town and only hope that the party that took 2 hours to form doesn't disband from being too anxious for exp/hr.

My uniqueness would be the same uniqueness that the people with Maat's cap have except, the actual access to all of those abilities is far more rewarding than a stat boosting hat. The accomplishment has real impact on gameplay and my ability to adapt to the situation.

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Gear to only fit a certain role.

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It already does. Learn about optimal gear.

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Weaponskills to be based on the weapon and not be used by others. (Why can a Lancer use an Archer's weaponskill?)

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Not to mention that some weaponskills are already locked but also... because they took the time to learn it. How do you forget how to wear a hat? (in reference to your statement above)

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If you want to make a thread regarding the sound or linkshell issues, then please do so in another thread.

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Your posts are long as well, but I still take the time to read them thoroughly. If you want to tl;dr me, don't make tl;dr able posts. If you would've read my post you'd see that I was agreeing with you in that things need to be changed, just not the core of character growth, which is a highly debatable topic based solely on opinion. The things that I listed are things that need to be changed and stem from an "XI already did it this way" premise.

Final Fantasy XIV should be a different game. Completely altering the core of the game is feasible and expected, especially in light of the player survey, but it needs to be altered into it's own definition, not into a game that already exists. I'm arguing that the Armoury system is something they did right. It's part of the reason people came form race/gender/class/character/job locked games. It's by far one of XIV's diamonds in the rough.

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Right now this game feels like I have a cheat book in using whatever abilities I desire with minimal consequences.

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That can be easily adjusted through monster difficulty. You don't need to scrap the Armoury in favor of a more restricted system.

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I'm sorry, but I don't like playing a game that's boring when I level a different class with the same abilities I've used for the past three.

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No need to apologize. No offense taken. You don't have to play this boring game. You can go play XI as you seem to love referencing it so. It's still there. Still strong. Larger player base than XIV. It has everything you want, well, except for the pretty graphics.

Regardless, you don't have to play with the same abilities. You can put self imposed limitations on your own character as much as you please, just like you could in XI. You never had to get a subjob. You never had to have a perfect job/subjob combination. That subjob never had to be of a certain level. In that regard, both games gave you that freedom. Your qualm is with the community. Your trying to make a preemptive point when the community has not declared the strict social norms that XI has done. Perhaps it should, specifically if you're still of the opinion that any class can wear any gear.

Just because you can doesn't mean that you should but, you have the ultimate decision of choosing whether to do so or not. That's what XIV gives you as of the time of this writing.

If you choose to do so, could you answer me these questions?

What was the motivation behind leveling any bandwagon job in XI? Is that a sign that people want to be unique or is that a sign that people want to remain viable?

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Originally Posted by Arcell

I posted this in another thread but I'll paste it here:

Personally when I play Pugilist it is completely different from how I play Marauder, and that's different from how I play Gladiator. Then again I try to use most of a class's native skills as possible as those are meant for that class. Marauder has a lot of conal AoE attacks, Pugilist is more of a one-on-one fighter and Gladiator is decidedly a tank class not to mention the Sentinel abilities that make it unique in its own right. I would heavily suggest against a Lancer tanking simply because they have no native enmity generation skills and not only that, they tend to have more native enmity mitigation skills if anything. Sure a Gladiator can DD but I really wouldn't suggest it too heavily as they don't have tons of good high DPS skills natively. You can borrow skills from other classes but it still wouldn't be as effective as say a Pugilist.

There will always be skills that are universally useful (Second Wind, Cure, Feint, Bloodbath, Raging Strike) but to acquire the more potent versions of them you have to climb pretty far up the other classes. The only way everyone's going to have the same skills in end-game is if everyone levels everything to 50. As it stands now people are still different in the pools of skills they have based on what classes they chose to level first and further.

As others have said, it's not like there weren't any cookie-cutter builds in XI that you HAD to follow or else you'd be shunned from parties. In XIV there's much more grey area between "good" and "bad" builds. Sure there will always be cookie-cutter builds but here you can deviate a bit more without being shunned from groups.

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^This as well.

Ultimately, it all comes down to people wanting to be able to kick people who don't conform to their idea of what a class is supposed to be out of their party faster than they currently can with the armory system.

To these people, fuck you and your inbred idea of "class balance". You are the ones who ruined FFXI.

The post is sponsored by Red Bull

Okay, Rhomagus. Seems to me that you are taking offense to my statements. Telling me to go back to FFXI? tut tut tut. Stay out of my thread from now on. You had some points, but trying to bad mouth me? Please.

It's great you made a list of all the Final Fantasy systems. Did I once say scrap the class system? Nope. Yet you keep talking like I did in fact say this. Oh. And as far as Maat's cap. Nope, not everyone had it. But if I could remember the names of my linkshell mates from 3 years ago, I could say about 21/37 in the shell had one? (Me included) but did everybody? Nope. Not too hard when you had a group of experienced people.

Fact is that you completely disregarded what I said. Which being that it would probably turn into everyone leveling a certain class just for the ability to slap it on a better class. You act like I'm the idiot, yet I'm not the one listing every FF ever developed to try and prove a point over new class systems. Here's your problem. This liberty you have? Works great for a single player RPG. Go see Elder Scroll's, Dragon Age, Final Fantasy X. Not too bad when it's just you versus the world. But with massive amounts of others? Nope. Just seems stupid. How about you go back to single player RPG and leave this game to someone who loves a challenge?

Ah. The optimal gear you say? Really.......Well maybe you should mold your mind over certain pieces of gear that was only job specific such as AF, Relic, and various other pieces obtained through questing or synthesis. (Dragon Harness, Hagun, Bravura, Rouge's Harness, etc, etc.) and making enemies more difficult to cope with this system? Please. That's about as useful as a 30 second cooldown for everyone being able to use sacrifice II & cure II. Just useless. Let's not forget about the weaponskills you like. Rather stupid that if a class is based on a weapon, then why does it allow their weaponskills to be transfered? Dur!

Oh. And why did I choose to be a Samurai, Monk, and Black Mage main? Probably because I loved the thought of playing those jobs? At least when I chose them they didn't seem as tasteless as XIV's current class system is. Oh. And I was a pretty damn good Galka BLM. So stuff it when you were dissing races being the key to what you leveled.

Now I'm going to go ahead and let you read this. However I'm going to add you to yet as another person on my ignore list when you try to respond to me. So don't waste your time, and stay out of my thread. Goodbye.

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Okay, Rhomagus. Seems to me that you are taking offense to my statements.

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I am not taking offense to your statements. Your rhetoric leans towards the demeaning, but I am not offended. You have just as much right to your opinion as I do.

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Telling me to go back to FFXI?

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I'm not telling you to go back to XI. I'm not trying to kick you out of XIV. I'm just letting you know that there is a system out there that that fulfills your needs and that you may have more fun with it. It's a suggestion, not a commandment.

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Stay out of my thread from now on.

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How much did you pay for this thread? Do you have a license for this thread? Maybe some accompanying documentation that proves you have sole dominion over who can and can't post in this thread? If you are able to produce such evidence I will respectfully cease and desist.

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You had some points, but trying to bad mouth me?

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I am not trying to attack your character. If I was to make an ad hominem attack I'd ask rhetorical questions like, "What does a guy named Kimarhi Ronso truly know about character uniqueness? Does he have any authoritative opinion on the subject?" but that would be a logical fallacy and would be ignoring the points you've tried to make without furthering the discussion.

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Fact is that you completely disregarded what I said.

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I've said it in another thread and I really hope you heed the suggestion that you shouldn't state things as fact when they are not. It adds nothing to your proposal and only serves to hurt your credibility. Not only that, but I've taken the time to carefully respond to every point you make. I'm not completely disregarding your points. I may be making them invalid, but I'm not disregarding them.

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Which being that it would probably turn into everyone leveling a certain class just for the ability to slap it on a better class.

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Again, you're making false assumptions and criticisms of the XIV community that haven't occurred yet and completely ignoring those already existing in XI.

-Samurai post Hasso and Seigan
-/Ninja for almost everyone

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You act like I'm the idiot, yet I'm not the one listing every FF ever developed to try and prove a point over new class systems.

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I never once suggested that you were an idiot. I do believe you are letting your emotions cloud your judgment but I never suggested that you were an idiot. I listed all of the Final Fantasy systems to show you that they were different and also to show you the similarities XIV shares with XI. It was indeed a direct response to your claim that they should "improve THAT system." If you didn't get that I apologize. I thought I was making it clear.

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Here's your problem. This liberty you have? Works great for a single player RPG.

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You still fail to even consider that the reason we have this liberty is that the restrictive nature of XI was a huge complaint even from that community. It took too long to form a party, and when someone had to go, for whatever reason, the group was unable to adapt to the changes and was forced to either disband or "go back to town" which resulted in more time not playing the game. This liberty is not a problem, it's what I've been arguing the entire time. I've already shown how it helps you adapt to an ever changing environment. The thing is, you spend time playing the game in XIV, not waiting like in XI. A strict class system like the one you suggest will pigeon hole people to an unnecessary degree. XIV's system works great for people with lives, that is why I like it. To quote Naoki Yoshida from the very "Letter from the Producer" blog post that you keep referencing:

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Naoki Yoshida from "Letter from the Producer V":

I imagine for many people it might go something like this: real life obligations at school or work → can't play for prolonged periods of time → log into a game with mostly party-based content → spend time looking for a party → end up losing actual game time. I'm well aware of these issues, and promise not to let vicious cycles like this dominate FFXIV's gameplay. I'm on it. ☺

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How about you go back to single player RPG and leave this game to someone who loves a challenge?

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My argument is that it works great for Final Fantasy XIV as well as single player RPGs specifically for the reasons cited above. Challenge is not wiping to a Twenty two hour long boss fight. Challenge is not waiting for a party. Challenge is not time spent. Challenge is the level of difficulty in which it takes to accomplish a certain goal. Challenge is a monster's stat change away. Waiting and wasting time not playing the game is not a challenge.

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Ah. The optimal gear you say? Really.......Well maybe you should mold your mind over certain pieces of gear that was only job specific such as AF, Relic, and various other pieces obtained through questing or synthesis.

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What are you even getting at here? I know about class locked gear. My argument is that you have to be aware that the gear you may be wearing may not be for your class and it is easily spelled out in the gear descriptions what classes are favored and which are not. You're also forgetting that classes aren't jobs or even roles, and the role you serve in a party is dependent on who is in the party. You don't need class locked gear for certain pieces to be better or more sought after than another. You made no point here.

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and making enemies more difficult to cope with this system? Please. That's about as useful as a 30 second cooldown for everyone being able to use sacrifice II & cure II. Just useless.

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Again, your point being? You can still create tough monsters. There are tough monsters right now that Cure II and Sacrifice II won't be of any consequence. Pull any number of your Rank 25 friends and see how you fair against Elder Mosshorn. Go ahead. Make a video of your victory at Rank 25 and I'll gladly stop posting in your threads. I'm sure you have access to Sacrfice II and Cure II so it should be a snap. If you do, congratulations, you obviously have found a way to defeat a tough enemy and thought outside the box to do so. I will gladly applaud you for that commendable achievement.

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Let's not forget about the weaponskills you like. Rather stupid that if a class is based on a weapon, then why does it allow their weaponskills to be transfered? Dur!

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You're only hurting your own reputation. Besides that, just because you say it's "rather stupid" does not make it so. There are already class specific weaponskills and I mentioned that in my post. There are already things that make the classes different from each other and I, and others, have already made those points. You may be reading the words on the screen but I don't think you are comprehending them. Please read more carefully.

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Oh. And why did I choose to be a Samurai, Monk, and Black Mage main?

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I didn't ask that. I asked:

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What was the motivation behind leveling any bandwagon job in XI? Is that a sign that people want to be unique or is that a sign that people want to remain viable?

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I wasn't asking why you specifically leveled those particular jobs, and you failed to acknowledge the second question. Next time you can include the question in your answer and you'll do a much better job at answering it. I don't have to agree with it. That is not a parameter that makes an answer correct or not. You can go ahead and try again if you so wish to do so, but the majority of your post was either a deep misunderstanding of my position and the source material or you skipping subjects you aren't comfortable with tackling.

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Now I'm going to go ahead and let you read this.

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Oh really. Thank you.

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However I'm going to add you to yet as another person on my ignore list when you try to respond to me.

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I post on an official community forum to help add to the community discussion. I am not concerned if you ever get this, but will use this opportunity to use you as an example. I have not personally attacked you, I don't see why you would put me on your ignore list, but to each their own. Everyone should have the freedom to do so, and I'm not against that. I'm hoping that I add perspective to the community knowledge base and that is why I post. I believe I have achieved that in all of my posts, if I didn't feel a post would do such a thing I wouldn't bother to respond.

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So don't waste your time, and stay out of my thread. Goodbye.

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I don't think I've wasted my time. As stated above, my post doesn't necessarily have to make it to your eyes. Its contents still have purpose for those who peruse this thread and I'd wager that you do not own these threads so you have no legitimacy behind your commanding tone. Farewell.

Well first off by letting me say I'm sorry. Some of your statements did seem demanding rather than suggestions to which I took offense. I won't add you to an ignore list, need to talk this situation out.

I know how people feel about party play and waiting times to obtain a party when they have a restricted schedule due to work, school, chores, or other activities. I do not oppose any ways that someone could level based on the time he/she has. I think that was the reason as to guildleve and the fatigue system. I just want to have some form of party play to gain more experience. I used to think while playing XI that I wish I could solo more often....Now that I solo all the time though? I get bored rather quick.

Hold on, I'm not very good at doing the quote thing so let me give it a try.

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What was the motivation behind leveling any bandwagon job in XI? Is that a sign that people want to be unique or is that a sign that people want to remain viable?

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I hope that worked as planned. Now when I gave my response, I thought I was leaning on the first point. Being unique to myself. Remaining viable had nothing to do with anything. Every job was used in certain degree's of being helpful. A monk would be a great DD in parties and very great at duo, but in some endgame scenes it was rather lacking in physical stamina and resorted to chi blast tactics. Thief wasn't a hot topic in parties, but would deal about the same damage as DD if built correctly. In the endgame scene it was used mostly as a TH looter and to establish hate back onto the tank.

The list could go on and on. No job was considered less valuable than the other in the terms of motivation to level. It was the player's choice in what he liked best about each individual job that decided which he would level. That's why there was so much variety in everyone's preference to level which jobs they wanted. It was only the content of the game play and strategies that determined it's value to certain aspects of the game. Would be great on certain things, yet so-so in others. That was a great balance.

Now when I talked about weaponskills, I showed my distaste for the current system. There might be some class specific weaponskills, but with a class being limited to only one weapon I do not see why other weapons' skills should be allowed to be used on a different weapon. In the previous model you were able to equip different weapons and use the same besides a select few because you were also able to use that weapon. I hope you're understanding what I'm trying to say. I wouldn't have a problem with using weaponskills off other weapons if you were able to equip those weapons. You couldn't use Red Lotus Blade when using a Great Sword.

Again. I'm sorry for the disrespect I've shown. I can be aggresive at times. Just want this game to flourish like it's predecessors. Just right now I don't feel that spark. If you'd like, I'd love to talk about this in a more civil discussion and I promise I'll try to hold my tonque.

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I do not feel that the implementation of auto-attack will solve everything. In other threads there have been many topics coming up about what is going to happen to the stamina gauge and claim system, how classes should have unique qualities and stats, what’s going to happen with monsters, raid dungeons, equipment, etc. I have looked over all of the great number of elements and at the current stage feel that without implementing auto-attack that the future battle system would be impossible.

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Well this certainly is some good news. I'm especially excited when they talked about, "classes should have unique qualities and stats," even though they were just refering to it as it was being discussed by us, it made an impression to them. Would really love to hear a post from the dev team as to any updates about this class uniqueness soon.

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Originally Posted by Kimahri

Would really love to hear a post from the dev team as to any updates about this class uniqueness soon.

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I think we all do kimahri. What ever they do its a big decision and one that they have said is a one shot deal. I love the idea behind the current system. A player rigging themselves for the situation at hand and changing up there load out as needed. as well as being able to bring in aspects from the other "Classes" to help augment that. Its pretty darned nifty but some can not wrap there heads around that.

But hey at the end of the day if the route they end up taking is fun but still malleable enough for a player to rig for a given situation i say bring it on.