Off Tank DPS - is Pld > War still a valid arguement?

Small detail relating to sword oath not a lot of people mention is that PLD auto attacks faster than the warrior as well, not sure how big of a difference this makes. As for the subject overall there were old threads on this with lots of tests and most of them concluded pally and warrior damage is the same (in sword oath/out of defiance) with storms eye pushing PLD slightly ahead.

In actual raid content warrior is usually going to win simply because they can do more damage in tanking stance, Unless the PLD is doing nothing but dps then the warrior is going to do more.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

In actual raid content warrior is usually going to win simply because they can do more damage in tanking stance, Unless the PLD is doing nothing but dps then the warrior is going to do more.

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Yes and no. WAR does more damage in tank stance using a SE+BB + Frac rotation, pretty much ignoring SP. So in this case your raid is taking more damage overall. Working in SP often requires some sacrifice, either dropping BB (you need to have some way to build up a massive threat lead over the PLD OT for this) or living without 100% up time on SE and SP (any SE downtime results from lower DPS from the MT + OT + NIN).

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Yes and no. WAR does more damage in tank stance using a SE+BB + Frac rotation, pretty much ignoring SP. So in this case your raid is taking more damage overall. Working in SP often requires some sacrifice, either dropping BB (you need to have some way to build up a massive threat lead over the PLD OT for this) or living without 100% up time on SE and SP (any SE downtime results from lower DPS from the MT + OT + NIN).

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Unchained and inner beast ignore the damage reduction from the tanking stance though, and paladin has no ability that ignores their tanking stance.

http://i.imgur.com/D9bOqUm.png

This is what Paladins can do when they maintank with swordoath! =)

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Originally Posted by Xtc

This is what Paladins can do when they maintank with swordoath! =)

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Without a doubt paladins can deal respectable damage while main tanking in sword oath. But I believe World of Darkness encounters can't provide realistic numbers.

For one: Depending on the amount of ninja's, the trick attack debuff may be on a lot. While not 100% up time, it's definitely up more often than in a group with a single ninja in it.
Secondly: It's five-headed dragon. If you save Circle of Scorn for when the heads appear, you hit up to 4 targets more (or was it 5?). That's an additional 100 potency on the initial hit + DoT hit for any head extra you hit.
And lastly: You're also sporting the dreadwyrm blade. Like 0,01% of the entire player base has this xD (if not less). This has no relation with WoD, however.

I'm not inclined to agree with this thread. PLD can do consistent DMG, but WAR do have much better burst dmg, and can output HIGHER damage. TBH, I find that having the burst damage is better for OTing, as you switch back and forth from OTing adds, or MTing the boss for a bit, so it's good to be able to burst harder DPS when you need to. Only think about Unchained if you are actually "tanking", you're better off just dropping Defiance if you want to OT DPS. Thats 25% of your damage back, and you don't need Inner Beast or Steel or Unchained anymore if you're DPSing.

Tip: Get used to dropping Defiance and DPSing whenever possible during your big fights. An OT who sits in defiance, and does nothing is not a good OT at all. Learn when you can push offence, learn when you need to swap and tank, and learn how to manage your TP FAAAAR better. Once you start trying to DPS harder, your TP consumption gets a little ridiculous.

PS: I've out DPS'd PLD MTs since 2.1 (when WARs got BUFFED...) and still do, especially in T13. :P Pointless point is pointlessly pointless. #pointlessception

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Originally Posted by nijian

Only think about Unchained if you are actually "tanking", you're better off just dropping Defiance if you want to OT DPS. Thats 25% of your damage back, and you don't need Inner Beast or Steel or Unchained anymore if you're DPSing. PS: I've out DPS'd PLD MTs since 2.1 (when WARs got BUFFED...) and still do, especially in T13. :P

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This is total garbage advice. If you have unchained and Infur up and are DPSing, HS > Defiance > Infur > Unchained > Combo -> Inner Beast > Drop Defiance

There is no reason not to use unchained if you don't need it or infur in the near future because you get a free 300 potency attack out of using it, AND it saves you TP. I start off pulls that I am DPSing on in Defiance, using that strategy, a great opener is:

Infur > Unchained (Pre-pull) > Fract > Brutal > Heavy > Maim > Internal > Berserk > Eye > Heavy > Maim > Path > IB > Drop Defiance > Heavy > Maim > Eye > Fract

Once you become unpacified start with Path if you are needing the debuff, you will only end up with about 1 second of downtime on the debuff even if you aren't esuna'ed. Its worth mentioning you need 390-420 sksp for this to work depending on your latency.

And of course you have outdpsing PLD MTs because they are in Shield Oath. WAR MT will always do more dmg than PLD MT, while PLD OT should do more dps than a WAR OT.

That's all good and well on a Target Dummy and theory crafting. In practical actual use, this means nothing. I prefer simple +25% more damage over overcomplicating things. Far more reliable DMG increase in actual complicated fights where there's mechanics and shit to do. :)

And yes, you're right, was out DPSing Shield Oathed PLDs, so kinda pointless point is pointless. Though, I would still state that while a PLD "may" out DPS a WAR in OT, that WAR are better OTs for a couple reasons. We still maintain GOOD DPS as OT, our Debuffs generate no enmity, thus messing with tank swap based fights, and our DoT too. PLDs are just better MT, since their CDs are bit better and generally take less dmg (even if we have a lot more HP).

I'm

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Originally Posted by nijian

That's all good and well on a Target Dummy and theory crafting. In practical actual use, this means nothing. I prefer simple +25% more damage over overcomplicating things. Far more reliable DMG increase in actual complicated fights where there's mechanics and shit to do. :)

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Honestly (and I apologize if this is blunt), this is incredibly silly to say in a theory crafting thread. Also, while I get your point about overcomplicating things for yourself, people like to push the limits of what they can achieve in games. Stating that you'd rather not complicate things is fine for you but doesn't really belong here because the fact is you're doing less dps than you could be because you think mechanics will overshadow utilizing the methods indicated above. My co-tank pushes the limits of what he can do while still taking care of mechanics. To me, that's what this thread is about.

I'm not saying that I do not try and do my best while learning a progression fight, to find as many opportunities as I can to push more DPS. However, if you over complicate things with crazy exact theories, and fail to execute the mechanics/strat correctly, then what the heck is the point when you die, or cause a wipe. I simply do not buy into the theories people whip out, without taking into consideration the variables and mechanics of a fight, so I chose not to listen to theories, and work with fundamentals that work through experience.

But you're right. I guess this is a theory crafting class, and I will be stepping outa here. Learning new bits of facts about CDs and buffs etc is cool, but I won't be spending time theory crafting... I'll leave that task to others...

And Asherek, were it not for the fact you've cleared T13, and seemingly more so than I, I would have just ignored your post and laughed, but out of respect, I'll leave it at that.

ugh, theory classes ... *leaves*