So what skills can we expect at lvl 60?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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Honestly, something as simple as class specific traits targeted at class abilities (or even the shared abilities) would be a good start. Careful Syn II could be free for WVR and cost 15 CP as a cross-class (Careful Syn I would still be free). Hasty Touch and Rapid Synthesis could have 60% success rate for CUL and ARM. Rumination doesn't consume your IQ stacks when used by CRP, but can only be used once per synthesis. This would fit right in with how they already treat cross class skills with the DoW/M classes.

It's a simple change that makes the classes feel different without upsetting the already established norm of crafting. I still think that a lot of the base skills really need to get tuned so that they serve a purpose.

I don't know much about the team crafting. What have they said about it so far?

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

One thing they could do is specialized team crafting for something as big as an airship. Like 2 or 3 people would take turns on each step with the enforced no-cross-skills. Buffs, durability and progress would be shared, but CP is individualized. At least that way you can have pieces of a puzzle coming together, rather than trying to attempt a craft with only a few (which goes back to me mentioning that some classes just aren't feasible for developing a craft to capitalize on their skills)

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Literally a group Synth, I love it. So you can remove everybodies cross class skills, but if you can get a group of 8 people together, then you have access to all of the skills. Great activity for events such as building Airships.

Like his post ++++++++

(Even though admitedly, I don't think I have access to 7 other crafters, and I hink I'm still the only 4* Crafter in my whole FC. Guess I'd be responsible for the finishing actions.)

I was literally throwing out suggestions they could do that doesn't require changing the entire foundation of what we have now; I haven't heard anything about team or group crafting straight out of the mouth.

Even if you did add traits, it wouldn't differentiate them enough to allow for incredibly specialized crafting without, again, redoing the skills as a whole. I mean I'm nitpicking your examples at this point, but CRP would still struggle to have the CP requirement to prolong a craft for high IQ stacks with just rumination, standard synthesis would outweight CSII if it had a CP cost (in nearly every scenario).

I mean it's mostly the same case as the DoW/DoM cross skills, the traits for the cross skills themselves don't really diffirentiate on how they're executed, just effectiveness. Not enough to make that big of a difference unless the class themselves play differently (which I can't say for DoH because of their specific skills requiring syngergy with cross skills)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

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It was mostly a simple change that would at least differentiate them a small bit. I think the problem overall is the recipes are designed from the start with all the cross class skills being required, which I hated even back in 2.0. I thought it was absurd that you needed Byregot's and Hasty Touch/Steady Hand II to really do anything in 2* crafting. I mean the "difficulty" of their recipes have really only come from making quality bars massive to the point that you rely on RNG conditions for your BB and progression bars that require PbP and Rapdi Synth spam because no one ever used these skills prior to 2.2.

Also not to nitpick, but Standard Synthesis has a 90% success where CSII has 100%, so unless you have SH already up for something else CSII might be the cheaper option over SS. That'd be like saying that Basic Synthesis outweighs CSI in nearly every scenario.

But still many of the skills really need a rework out of the shear fact that you never use them. Standard and Advanced Touch stand out as the most obvious examples considering they are shared by all classes and don't cater to the quantity over quality touch spam to get IQ stacks.

I think opening more options for the crafting is less difficult than you are making it sound. Without cross class skills many DoHs in their current state would suffer, but this is because many of the base class skills serve no practical purpose. So why not just start by making those more practical to use. The fact that these skills have been left like this for so long is just a joke.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

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> It wouldn't differentiate them that much to make any difference like I mentioned; that's like comparing a MNK with traited mantra and a MNK that doesn't have untraited mantra (and I'm using both as MNKs because all DoH classes are more or less the same in their crafting styles).

Another thing is, how do you make a step-by-step progress "difficult" outside of the numbers? More or less, everything can be planned out and the only factor is the probability of success %s and the conditions, then its a matter of meeting the required stats to minimize the former (CP to use basic syn + SH II, craftsmanship to complete in X amount of synthesis, and control to increase quality to Y amount)

> That's what I meant by "nearly every scenario". When I'm doing 3 or 4* crafts, I always start with PbP and rapid syn first, then I finish it at the end with CSII. Near the end, I always use a BB finisher anyway, so I'm always going to be under the influence of SHI (which then boosts the success rate of standard synthesis). If both CSII and A.syn costs 15 CP, why would I ever use CSII when I'm under the effects of SH (which is always the case after my BB finisher and that I'm going to be finishing a craft immediately right after).

> I use Advanced in cixali crafts that lock me out of cross skills and are 40 durability. These still have a place to play if you can spare the CP, such as capitalizing a good or excellent condition at the beginning of a craft. Brands are for furnishing and vintage equips. The only one I'll give is flawless synthesis, it only has a place in extremely low level crafts.

> And that's the thing, they have to redo the base skills if they were to remove the homogenization from cross classes. I wouldn't say that the base skills are a joke since they still have their place (with the exception of flawless), but it's because that they're shared as the baseline skills for all crafting classes, you can't realistically make them have a different crating method without giving them unique baseline skills (skills that aren't cross classed and not shared between all the DoHs)

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Another thing is, how do you make a step-by-step progress "difficult" outside of the numbers? More or less, everything can be planned out and the only factor is the probability of success %s and the conditions, then its a matter of meeting the required stats to minimize the former (CP to use basic syn + SH II, craftsmanship to complete in X amount of synthesis, and control to increase quality to Y amount)

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I realize an optimal rotation is unavoidable. I'd rather that they have 8 different, optimal rotations (one for each of the DoHs) than have one ubiquitous rotation. That's my point.

Not sure on new cross class skills. I can only think of two skills that would need to be reworked. It would be helpful to have an extra 2 slots to have 12 or more skills. At this time I can get the 10 main skills I need in, though there are 2 more I would like to add to the rotation. The Inner Quiet would be nice to go over 11. I have rotations with luck that can hit 14 times but only stacks to 11. Beyond gear, having more durability would be nice. 120 durability would be a start. Even at current cp levels there is a lot that can be done here. As for rng, that is here to stay. I don't see them easing up on that in 3.0. One last thought, up the ilvl we can craft. i110 is very expensive and has yet to give any meaningful recovery of gil. I like the way we got the i110 mats and the desynth working in 2.4, for all that we should be making i115 to i120 gear. About 80% of gil I make is still at 2 star crafting and below since patch 2.4.

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Originally Posted by Sibyll

So you think it's good design that you need to level every single crafting class to 50 in order to effectively use the one or two classes that you are actually interested in?

You might be content with the way things are right now, but I think this could be more than the gimmicky WoW system they are pushing toward. The framework is already there.

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You got all that from my post heh? Because i never said any of those things. I agree with you. I would just be annoyed in general that i went through all that work for nothing, i.e incoming major changes to class skills.

Well, here's an idea for making the other touches useful, and perhaps (hopefully) killing the Hasty Touch rng rotation.

Raise the max number of IQ stacks from 10 to 20.
Hasty Touch and Basic Touch give 1 IQ.
Standard Touch gives 2 IQ.
Advanced Touch gives 3 IQ.

Basic, Standard, and Advanced Touches now all have a 70% base success rate.

Under this system, if I so choose, I can do SH2 and 4 Advanced Touch, costing 217 CP, for 12 stacks of IQ. Suddenly quality isn't so bad.
I still need 6 turns worth of progress, and of course BB, that requires a total of 110 durability, so lets say Master's Mend, CP total is 217 + 92(MM) + 22(SH) + 15*2(PbP) + 32(GS) + 24(BB) - 14(CZ) + 18(IQ) = 419 CP...
Yeah, 419 CP is a little more than what is currently available... But you get the idea.

The fact that we have such MASSIVE quality bars forces us to build up IQ stacks. However the most cost efficient way to do so is HT, this needs to change. If the other touches gave more IQ stacks... hell what if we had an ability which just gave IQ stacks???

Consider this guys, an ability that basically lets you trade CP for IQ stacks, along with the above suggestion.
You can use touches to get IQ and quality. Or you can build only IQ, and throw REPEATED Byregot's, though that may hinge on condition fishing, while the touches method should work 100% of the time.
Well 417 CP is what,

What if they just implement a job system for the DoH similar to the DoW and DoM? You could equip a specific company issue tool (or soul stone type item if you prefer) to change into a master crafting class. (I’m sure you'd need 50 FCIII, 70 oaknots, and a rare unicorn that appears every other Thursday to obtain it, but that’s beside the point). They can add job specific actions while limiting available cross class skills and specialize recipes towards each class without having to rework the whole system.

Ex: The high-level ARM recipes would be heavy in progress so you’ll need RS and PBP to complete the synthesis, but not need as many touches to HQ. People will also want to start melding their ARM gear towards craftsmanship and less control. If people want to go at them without the jobs and use tons of cross-class skills and pray to the RNG gods they can, but knowing different jobs would definitely improve the chances of HQ goods.