What's your opinion on the "Shoulder Tackle" skill for Monks?

All of you wanting the stun taken off of Shoulder Tackle makes me sad. It's useful for those moments where an add spawns and you need to get to it and stop it fast, and is especially useful if you have tanks who refuse to stun (which I happen to see all the time) or a Warrior as a tank (who can only stun once every 30 seconds). The stun is fine people, because if you want to nitpick like this then I guess I should be calling for a lower range on Provoke due to too many bad tanks using it to start a pull.

i think it's fine as it is, if the CD is any lower it'll be too good. Though if SE somehow decide to lower the CD and tune down the damage i wouldn't mind at all.

also the stun is excellent for PvP. Maybe in the future expansions you can augment your base skills, instead of stunning, you'll do silence..etc

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

All of you wanting the stun taken off of Shoulder Tackle makes me sad. It's useful for those moments where an add spawns and you need to get to it and stop it fast, and is especially useful if you have tanks who refuse to stun (which I happen to see all the time) or a Warrior as a tank (who can only stun once every 30 seconds). The stun is fine people, because if you want to nitpick like this then I guess I should be calling for a lower range on Provoke due to too many bad tanks using it to start a pull.

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I use Provoke to start pulls when I need to specifically grab a single mob that's out of range of Shield Lob; this doesn't really happen very often. Shortening the range on it honestly wouldn't do much. I'd shrug and find another way. Bad tanks would still use it to start pulls. The number of monks that I see using Shoulder Tackle constructively (i.e. stopping adds or stunning abilities) is vastly eclipsed by the number of them that simply use it as a lazy way to get from place to place, regardless of whether or not it will impede the off-tank trying to stun.

Just so you don't feel singled out, I see the same thing happen with Spineshatter Dive.

I like the skill a lot, just one thing is bugging me - the minimum required range to use the skill. It looks, feels and works odd when I run away few meters to just use the skill that actually should close the gap :D

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

I use Provoke to start pulls when I need to specifically grab a single mob that's out of range of Shield Lob; this doesn't really happen very often.
Shortening the range on it honestly wouldn't do much. I'd shrug and find another way. Bad tanks would still use it to start pulls. The number of monks that I see using Shoulder Tackle constructively (i.e. stopping adds or stunning abilities) is vastly eclipsed by the number of them that simply use it as a lazy way to get from place to place, regardless of whether or not it will impede the off-tank trying to stun.

Just so you don't feel singled out, I see the same thing happen with Spineshatter Dive.

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Sadly I see it all the time with Provoke, as a lazy way to pull a mob that's within Shield Lob or Tomahawk distance. There's really no point IMO to nerf a skill (because taking off the stun WOULD be a nerf) just because players spam it in the wrong ways, otherwise we'd have to nerf Lustrate due to some SCHs using it whenever they have Aetherflow stacks, Provoke due to the previously mentioned bad tanks, Garuda-Egi due to bad players using it for multiple mobs (she's a single target master, use Ifrit-Egi and his cleave instead), etc.

The only way to fix this problem IMO would be if there was an instanced tutorial every time you got a new skill (and weren't currently in a duty/quest instance), and you had to complete it before you could enter any duty or complete/continue any quest. But I'm pretty sure people would get on my case for that as catering to casuals...which we sadly have to do if endgame DR is any indication. I see too many bad players nowadays, all day yesterday it was bad SMNs and SCHs, day before that was bad WHMs, day before that was bad WARs and PLDs...you get the point.

I want to cross class it as BLM so I can manawall tank more effectively.

The range requirement for Shoulder Tackle kinda makes sense:

(1) Its purpose is to act as a gap-closer, not a free off-GCD attack that you can weave in like DRG's Jumps.
(2) *Logically* the MNK needs the distance to create momentum of force. If you do it from melee-ish range it won't be a really 'strong' tackle.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

There's really no point IMO to nerf a skill (because taking off the stun WOULD be a nerf)

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It wouldnt be a nerf, quite the opposite actually, it would be a buff. The stuns in the melees tool kit actually have much more important utility in dps (leg sweep, steel peek, spineshatter dive) and closing gaps (shoulder tackle, spineshatter dive). The diminishing returns of stuns disables the use of those tools in some fights and causes a loss in sustained dps, (especially) burst dps and mobility, while the actual use of the stun is close to null due to the presence of tanks. Removing stun or trading it for something else would actually be beneficial for melees because of that.

Imagine if they'd put a stun on bio and fester, or lightning or bloodletter and not being able to use those tools in some fights.

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Originally Posted by kyrios91

*Logically* the MNK needs the distance to create momentum of force. If you do it from melee-ish range it won't be a really 'strong' tackle.

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Maybe if it was an actual "shoulder tackle" (like Steel Peak). But in actuality Shoulder Tackle is a palm strike, which could very much be done from melee range at full effectiveness.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

It wouldnt be a nerf, quite the opposite actually, it would be a buff. The stuns in the melees tool kit actually have much more important utility in dps (leg sweep, steel peek, spineshatter dive) and closing gaps (shoulder tackle, spineshatter dive). The diminishing returns of stuns disables the use of those tools in some fights and causes a loss in sustained dps, (especially) burst dps and mobility, while the actual use of the stun is close to null due to the presence of tanks. Removing stun or trading it for something else would actually be beneficial for melees because of that.

Imagine if they'd put a stun on bio and fester, or lightning or bloodletter and not being able to use those tools in some fights.

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This is kinda how I feel about it. The only reason I care about the stun is the diminishing returns on it. I'd love to be able to weave in Leg Sweep and Spineshatter on DRG whenever I please, but if the mob has something that the tank is supposed to stun, you have to completely forego them or risk interfering with the tank.

The diminishing returns on stun are really unforgiving, too. What, three or four stuns till they become useless?