Ninja: "So.. about that Storm's Eye?"

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Originally Posted by Alistaire

Fracture is garbage for other jobs, that's what you've heard and are regurgitating. 300 potency for WAR, it'd be on par with Inner Beast if it ignored the damage penalty like IB does.

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It's 300 potency over 30 seconds and is not affiliated with any of the WAR buffs/debuffs, not simply "300 potency". It reduces effective uptime of debuffs by 2.5 seconds, and doesn't generate Wrath. If you ignore debuffs and Wrath stack generation, Fracture amounts to just over a 2% increase in damage. When you factor in reduced uptime on buffs/debuffs as well as the reduction in Wrath stack generation, Fracture actually ends up being a noticeable DPS loss (and significant increase in TP consumption, as well).

The only reason for a WAR to use Fracture is for the damage while they are leveling or as a "timer" if they have no other viable method of tracking 30 second intervals (like, you know, a "/echo blahblahblah <wait.30>" macro). At 50, it's a straight up reduction in performance to use it.

I don't even have a warrior at lvl 50 but anyway. To me it makes sense that a dps class would get a dps debuff to keep up like dragoon's piercing debuff. Seems a little weird that a tank gets that debuff.

Just my 2 cents.

I doubt that Ninja would get an additional slashing debuff, at least that could be kept up most of the time. Reason being, if slashing resistance was cut by 20% instead of 10%, it would be a total of 25% more damage instead of 11% more, which would make that 1 WAR, 6 NIN, 1 SCH/WHM combination incredibly silly, and 2 WAR, 4 NIN, 2 SCH/WHM would still have near, if not, 100% uptime on two targets.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ninja got some magic damage thrown in the mix, with the talk of hand-signs and whatnot, and the split in damage types could at least mitigate any damage loss from not having its own slashing debuff. This may be expecting a lot, but then we could have something kind of new, a class that uses two different main stats.

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Originally Posted by Skull_Angel

It should equate to an 11% increase in damage when up.

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And 11% of nothing is still nothing; it is not a tank's job to focus on damage.

It's something extra that you can do for your group, but I feel that to call it a disservice not to is quite an exaggeration.

Every game has a diverse mix of players and I think that it is important that the message we send to players is that they learn how to play their class first so that we don't end up with Warriors in our groups that are applying fracture right after tomohawk then complaining about not being able to establish a lead in aggro.

The idea of advanced strategies and being more open to copying them is something that will come naturally after reaching a certain level of player ability.

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The only reason for a WAR to use Fracture is for the damage while they are leveling or as a "timer"

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personally the only time i would use it is coming off an unchained & berserk burst

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Originally Posted by Delorean

And 11% of nothing is still nothing; it is not a tank's job to focus on damage.

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This would be a legitimate argument if tanks actually provided no DPS. I routinely provide more than 50% of what a DPS would provide (and, oftentimes, if I'm tanking a single while the DPS have to target swap, which occurs in a large number of fights, I'll actually put out the same amount as a DPS). That's not "11% of nothing". That's "11% of 20% of the total raid damage".

Also, it's been said numerous times: just because damage isn't the #1 priority of a tank doesn't mean that it's not a priority at all. Tanks must first make sure they stay alive (this is everyone's first priority, in fact), secondly get/maintain aggro, thirdly minimize incoming damage, and, finally, maximize damage output.

It should also be mentioned that maximizing damage is not mutually exclusive with any of those previous priorities. In fact, maximizing damage oftentimes ends up being what you need to do to get/maintain aggro (BB spam does a crapload less damage and generates significantly less enmity than SE>BB>BB; SE>BB generates as much enmity as straight up BB spam while doing a crapload more damage).

A tank that does not work to maximize their damage output isn't contributing as much as they can to the success of their group, and, since tank damage is *not* completely ignorable (tank damage should always be ~20% of total DPS, assuming equal gear level and straight up tank/spank) you *are* doing your group a disservice by not maximizing it (or at least working to maximize it). If all you want to do is maintain aggro and reduce incoming damage, you can basically do a single high enmity UBIR rotation (the optimized one) and then throw up Storm's Path every 20 seconds; your damage is going to be crap, but you'll be doing everything that your role "requires" of you.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

If all you want to do is maintain aggro and reduce incoming damage, you can basically do a single high enmity UBIR rotation (the optimized one) and then throw up Storm's Path every 20 seconds; your damage is going to be crap, but you'll be doing everything that your role "requires" of you.

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lol calling bad tank dps bad is like saying a dps in the 90th percentile of rankings is bad

it's not even possible to do bad damage as a tank. just keep maim up and you will be within 10% damage of whatever anyone else is doing.

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Originally Posted by Delorean

lol calling bad tank dps bad is like saying a dps in the 90th percentile of rankings is bad

it's not even possible to do bad damage as a tank. just keep maim up and you will be within 10% damage of whatever anyone else is doing.

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holy crap you must run with some bad dps, personally i dont see tanks doing 350 dps, and thats not even 90% of what i consistently see from my static groups' dps

now then, from a dps' standpoint (since i main a dps class), finding a war who is able to throw up storms eye most of the time would be great, but to expect 100% up time if the warrior has to do any tanking at all, its just not going to happen, sure it might be nice and all, but just look at all the bards that do good dps without a dragoon, at least ninjas should always have the debuff up some of the time, and ninjas wont even have to nerf their damage by singing songs.

with that said, players in general should always try to outperform themselves, in the case of warriors, one of the things they can do is throw up storms eye a little more, if it was even .1 dps higher than the last attempt because of it, then its better.

on a side note, storms path doesn't require 100% uptime, as a tank you should know when the spike damage is coming and plan accordingly, if theres no spike damage coming for a while, throw up a storms eye instead of a storms path.