SMN in T8

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Originally Posted by xxalucard

Then if you factor in Foe's Requiem + Battle voice combo'd with Rouse + spur + enkindle (Garuda's enkindle has a bigger initial potency than Ifrit's), crits become even more valuable because Garuda will be at a plateau that ifrit can't reach even with a monk's dragon kick.

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i'll just clear up any misconception you seem to have about ifrits enkindle ability, garuda-egi uses a 250 potency aoe that is magic based, everyone knows this obviously.
what most people dont realize, ifrit-egi's enkindle ability is a 200 potency + 15 sec dot @ 20 potency cone aoe and is MAGIC damage, its an overall 50 potency higher than garuda's enkindle and is affected by foes req because of this, and it doesnt suffer a damage loss due to being on a physical damage calculation, and as such is unaffected by dragon kick by monks.

It seems that people dont really like to read what they dont agree on. I tried ifrit, it didn't get me a dps increase, I run out of mana by 4-5 min and had to be that guy that ask for mana, when our MNK who is doing well over 450 needs peon. I did about 320 with ifrit back then, while 340 with garuda. Now im doing 390+ garuda. Did I mention garuda scales alot harder with gear?

Maybe its cuz ur undervalue/lack of good understanding of contagion thats holding you back on T9.

I think Contagion's ability to save some MP for the SMN will win in the long run. It's a long fight with very little breaks and it's not always feasible to use Ballad. But I haven't tried it so I can't knock it until I do.

Ifrit is significantly more dps as long as you have a monk, even with proper use of contagion. This holds true for Turn 6/8/9, Garuda is closer on T7. I've only played with Ifrit since i103, so can't speak for anything less than that. The difference from then on though is very significant.

My question is, why does everyone think you have to start with and stick with 1 pet? I open with Garuda, Contagion my raging+pot+poison pot dots then swiftcast out to ifrit for the remainder of the fight. On T9 I can bring Garuda out for every Raging Strikes because of the fights downtime and not be affected mana wise.

For reference I can sustain ~415 dps on T8, where I use Ifrit the entire fight after I Contagion my opener. No poison pots. (i110 book)

Ifrit pulled 116 dps this week on Turn 9 - keep in mind T9 has A LOT of downtime, which makes that number much less than it would be on a 100% uptime fight. Find me a Garuda that can even get close to that. I also swap out to Garuda to Contagion every Raging Strikes which lowers Ifrits DPS as well.

Plain and simple - if you must use 1 pet for the entire fight, use Ifrit if you have a monk. Proper use of contagion on a fight like Turn 7 brings Garuda closer, and Garuda is better in situations where there is AOE and your dots will get to run their full Contagion duration. That leaves Ifrit by far better for T6/8/9.. if you have a monk. I highly suggest learning what your mana pool can handle though, and swap between pets accordingly for the best of both worlds. Usually only worth it on the opener, but in T9 there's plenty of downtime to hard-cast pets so you don't get stuck with Garuda out and no swiftcast after using Contagion.

As for the Mana concern, 1 short Ballad during T8 is enough to sustain ifrit - assuming the fight goes its full duration. T9 your mana should never be an issue. As I said I swap to Contagion every Raging Strikes, then swap back and can sustain myself for the entire fight. (Energy drain during golems)

Just throwing it out there, Ifrit is not purely Blunt. Burning Strike/Crimson Cyclone/probably Flaming Crush are Blunt, his autoattack is Slashing, and his Enkindle is Magic. Tested a few days ago.

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Originally Posted by Altimis

.... I don't see what the point to post more because only bullcrap all I see is Contagion almost everywhere and with MP conserve, I even wonder if your Bard never do their jobs or Bard is hard to find for T8 ....

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My BRD is there to do their job, bait missile, deal DPS and then sing FOE for melee cause they really need it as they TP hunger faster than healer/mage mana starve.

I am a SMN in my static and let's face it, no matter how perfect your run is, your DPS will not win melee. Conserving BRD's mana for FOE is what you should be doing to sustain your melee's DPS. Garuda's profile fits nicely for mana conservation.

You can say your ifrit deals more damage and you will not run out of mana cause your BRD is constantly ballad-ing you. But did you manage to see the big picture as a whole team?

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Originally Posted by Marcusow86

My BRD is there to do their job, bait missile, deal DPS and then sing FOE for melee cause they really need it as they TP hunger faster than healer/mage mana starve.

I am a SMN in my static and let's face it, no matter how perfect your run is, your DPS will not win melee. Conserving BRD's mana for FOE is what you should be doing to sustain your melee's DPS. Garuda's profile fits nicely for mana conservation.

You can say your ifrit deals more damage and you will not run out of mana cause your BRD is constantly ballad-ing you. But did you manage to see the big picture as a whole team?

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Except on what fight does a SMN using ifrit need a ballad specifically catered to them? 1 Ballad on Turn 8, which is the most mana-intense fight is more than enough, and at least during progression healers get that ballad at some point. Mana concerns are mentioned a lot in this thread, but there really isn't any situation where it's relevant. Turn 6 is too short, Garuda is close on Turn 7, Turn 8 1 Ballad is enough (A short one), Turn 9 you don't even need a ballad at all.. even if you pet swap constantly. So in what way is the whole team affected?

I only lose to our Monk on Turn 8, and not by much. (He's in the 440-450 range) The rest I can take if I try hard enough - SMN should easily top T9 DPS.


Also yes, ifrit does do mixed damage. The more you take away from him debuff wise, the less his dps is. If he has all debuffs available, he will smoke Garuda. (My other post still stands though, there's no reason not to use both on a fight.. Garuda should always be used at least for the opener, and ifrit from then on.)

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Originally Posted by Erai

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I believe this topic is all about T8 as a summoner, thus all my comment were based on T8.

You can argue swapping pets for more dps, but factoring in the mana cost for summon swapping (everytime RS off CD), downtime when swapping happens (both you and the pet), pet position allocation time wastage (certain fight). My conclusion/instinct tells me i am going to stick to Garuda for the whole fight.

In T8, i am responsible for landmine and tower, so i did couple of ruin II while running/getting into position. So my mana will be in critical condition if i do not watch it. Usually the BRD would only PEON our DRG/MNK and we are left with no mana song until close to the end of the fight where healer's would be in danger of OOM. It is completely up to me to utilize my mana reserve the best i can. I just do not have the luxury to summon swap every 3 min.

Alas, everyone have their own play style, not trying to hard force my play style on to you. Just continue what you believe and are comfortable with and what work best for your team.

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Originally Posted by Erai

Except on what fight does a SMN using ifrit need a ballad specifically catered to them? 1 Ballad on Turn 8, which is the most mana-intense fight is more than enough, and at least during progression healers get that ballad at some point. Mana concerns are mentioned a lot in this thread, but there really isn't any situation where it's relevant. Turn 6 is too short, Garuda is close on Turn 7, Turn 8 1 Ballad is enough (A short one), Turn 9 you don't even need a ballad at all.. even if you pet swap constantly. So in what way is the whole team affected?

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Speaking from T8, past a certain point you don't need ballad anymore though the melee definitely need paeon so your own mana becomes an issue at least from what I've seen. Since the bard will only be casting paeon and foes. Also this thread has only been for turn 8 where mana and tp does become and issue for dps except blm.

As for the others, T6, why use ifirt? Bard can just use battlevoice foes twice in the fight which will pull Garuda way ahead. Not like you need the other songs for that turn. T7 and 9, a lot of movement on adds or cleaves and the like so why take ifirt again? When garuda is far safer, likely increases your damage more and doesn't need to move. In T9 you can stand in melee range for a lot of the fight meaning miasma II can easily be contagioned. T9 also pushes back your pet with heavens fall, garuda doesn't really need to re-engage after being pushed away.

Also generally curious, what would be the benefit to swapping pets? It's a mana sink and isn't it better to have garuda out every minute for contagion. Even if you don't want to swap for that you'd want to swap back every 3 min for raging strikes. Why spend a swiftcast and a global to do that? When swiftcast can be better spend on SF or a res.

good read :)
/10char