Anyone knows the peak point of having Crit for SCH?

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That's not really how a sch is played. Even if a sch somehow combines their fairy into one cure dump, which no one wants to bring a sch in for, the fairy action is delayed by upto 5 seconds, not including the rouse that takes an extra action. If are claiming the fairy can heal like a whm, that's laughable.

Next time why don't you tell the sch to precast a "cure2" They're be lucky to get iti the heal in before the phase is even over.

In fact rarely would a sch rouse be very long because rouse + wispers already take up half the rouse time.

there's a reason why sch's are sch's and whms are whms. I'm not going to even attempt to heal a 3k phase, unlike a whm that can do it in their sleep.

any stat on a sch is going to translate into crap of crap multiplier it won't matter at all in a real fight. That's why sch's love crit.

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I'm sorry I can't believe you just said that. Um any decent SCH has a macro made to do Physick/Adloquium + Embrace, they may not press that macro every single time they cast a heal(its situational like everything else), but more often than not a good SCH has that macro setup. I doubt anyone is claiming the Fairy "can heal like a whm". Not to mention you're grossly overexaggerating the pet command delay. The real argument towards your "claims" is that the fairy is far from trivial. Stop trying to claim whm superiority when you clearly have no idea of what you're talking about. The evidence is in your posts, not even with the inclusion of my opinion. This isn't a competition. WHM and SCH were designed to work together and they do so FLAWLESSLY. SCH loves crit not because other stats suck, but because they gain so much benefit out of it. Bigger shields = more damage prevented = less reactive healing needed. SCH doesn't need anyone to tell them to precast any spell....if they know a big hit is coming Adloquium is probably already on the tank waiting for the hit to come. Same with Succor for the group as a whole.

In fact they're much like WAR and PLD are now with a grey area of MT/OT. Neither SCH nor WHM is the clear Main/off healer, to say otherwise would be saying you're uneducated on how this game currently works.

Whether you're being serious or using some serious hyperbole, either way....I honestly feel trolled.

@ Mei its actually exactly how a SCH is played. Weapon damage is best stat no matter what you want to believe. If you're not using rouse at vital points to increase healing you're bad. You macro the pet action first and it gets rid of the lag of the pet cast.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

...any stat on a sch is going to translate into crap of crap multiplier it won't matter at all in a real fight. That's why sch's love crit.

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It has nothing to do with potency, the reason SCH's stack crit is for them sweet sweet Adlo crits. Actually stacking crit makes our average heals weaker by like 30-50 HP overall compared to a Det based build. But because Adlo crits double the shield strength, fairy's not only crit but get a passive SS buff when they do and due to the way galvanize works in general, sacrificing cure potency for crit is more desirable. Like when a WHM crits 80% of it overheals and needlessly bumps enmity, but when a SCH crits 50% of it is guaranteed mitigation so significantly less waste.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That's not really how a sch is played. Even if a sch somehow combines their fairy into one cure dump, which no one wants to bring a sch in for, the fairy action is delayed by upto 5 seconds

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I'm only 38 on my Scholar and I know this is very false.
The macro for it is
/macroicon "Adloquium"
/ac Adloquium <t>
/pac "Embrace" <t>

And replace Adloquium for Physick when using Physick
Its amazing for burst heals.
And there is no delay unless you are on the move, but then its only delayed until the fairy gets to you. If she was placed then she will cast embrace just when you cast Physick or slightly slower.

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Originally Posted by Airikay

Uh...lol. EoS has same base stats except her heal has lower potency.

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This isn't entirely true. It's close, but if you look at HP-healed-per-point-of-potency on a SCH compared to her fairy, Eos and Selene will clock in somewhere in the 85-90% range. In other words, Embrace healing for 300 potency is roughly equivalent to the Scholar healing for 250-270 potency.

Having said that...

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That's not really how a sch is played. Even if a sch somehow combines their fairy into one cure dump, which no one wants to bring a sch in for, the fairy action is delayed by upto 5 seconds, not including the rouse that takes an extra action. If are claiming the fairy can heal like a whm, that's laughable.

Next time why don't you tell the sch to precast a "cure2" They're be lucky to get iti the heal in before the phase is even over.

In fact rarely would a sch rouse be very long because rouse + wispers already take up half the rouse time.

there's a reason why sch's are sch's and whms are whms. I'm not going to even attempt to heal a 3k phase, unlike a whm that can do it in their sleep.

any stat on a sch is going to translate into crap of crap multiplier it won't matter at all in a real fight. That's why sch's love crit.

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This is nuts. The fairy's actions are not "delayed", unless the fairy is moving or already performing an action - and if the fairy is performing another action, the absolute maximum delay before she begins casting her spell is 3 seconds, which only happens if you get the absolute worst timing possible and the fairy has just begun casting another Embrace when you order your own.
And if everybody but the tank has been topped off already and the fairy is casting Embrace, then she's probably casting Embrace on the tank to begin with, meaning that your timing is going to line up perfectly anyway.

Rouse is also not an 'extra action' for the fairy. Rouse is an off-GCD ability that it used by the Scholar. You can easily test this, by the way: Order your fairy to cast Embrace, and hit the button for Rouse immediately afterward. The fairy will continue casting Embrace, without being interrupted, she will receive the effect of Rouse while Embrace is being cast, and the effects of Rouse will actually be applied to that Embrace. If you use Rouse while Eos is casting Whispering Dawn, WD will receive the buff, and she'll have time for five Embraces before Rouse expires.


In the 90% of cases where the ordered Embrace and the Scholar's own heal land at the same time (and the 98% of cases where any delay on the fairy's Embrace is small enough that it won't matter in the slightest), then the fairy's added healing is going to be roughly equivalent to a 250 potency heal added to the Scholar's - 250 is lowballing it, but we're lowballing a Scholar's effectiveness here for the sake of argument.
- Using Physick, that's 650 potency (400 Physick, 250 Embrace), which is exactly equivalent to a White Mage using Cure II without Divine Seal.
- Using Adloquium, that's 850 potency (300 direct healing from Adloquium, 250 from Embrace, and a 300 potency heal from Galvanize that cannot overheal, unless it overwrites or is overwritten by another Galvanize). That's slightly better than a White Mage using Cure II with Divine Seal (650 potency * 1.3x multiplier from Divine Seal = 845 potency), although in practice it will usually heal for slightly less, because the White Mage is going to have a slightly stronger HP-healed-per-point-of-potency due to stacking Determination instead of Crit.
- Using Adloquium and Rouse - Which is only fair, as Rouse has the same duration and cooldown as Divine Seal - that's going to bump the potency up by 100 due to the 40% bonus on Embrace, giving the Scholar's heal 950 total potency to the White Mage's 845 - easily enough to trump the slightly (usually ~5-8%) higher HP-healed-per-point-of-potency that a White Mage usually has by stacking Determination.
- If Adloquium and Cure II happen to crit while Divine Seal and Rouse are up, the White Mage is going to be healing for an equivalent of 1267.5 potency - 650 * 1.3x Divine Seal * 1.5x Critical. The Scholar, on the other hand is going to be healing for an equivalent of 1700 potency - 900 of which can heal the target above their maximum HP (450 direct heal from Adlo, 900 from Galvanize, 350 from Embrace).

These comparisons, by the way, are seriously slanted in favour of the White Mage over the Scholar, because we're considering the White Mage's signature healing booster, Divine Seal, but we're not taking into account the Scholar's actual answer to Divine Seal: Lustrate. Assuming we're talking about healing a tank, and the tank and healers are equally geared, Lustrate is usually about on par with a non-crit, non-DS Cure II - only it's an instant-cast, off-GCD ability, meaning that it can land at essentially the same time as Physick or Adloquium. Once you factor Lustrate in, a Scholar's single-target burst healing power is anywhere from 1.5 to 2x that of a White Mage, and a significant portion of that healing is immune to overhealing, especially in the case of a Crit. That is why Scholars stack Crit.

Scholars are not 'woe is me' assistant healers that are just there to take care of the little things that a White Mage can't be bothered to do, who just stack Crit because none of it matters, and their heals are always gonna suck, etc etc, weep moan cry. Scholars are flat-out, indisputably superior single-target healers, the way that White Mages are flat-out, indisputably superior AoE/group healers. They work as a team, but if the Scholar isn't taking charge of that team when it's time to focus heal a single tank, then they're doing it wrong, period.

So the thread has established that there are linear gains to be had from crit, but I'm still kinda on the fence as to whether crit is stronger than determination. Yes, I know that Adlo/Succor criticals are very amazing. However, some facts got me looking at det a bit more:
- Stacking crit to extreme levels drops a lot of det, losing out a decent amount on non crit casts and huge amounts on crit casts (as every scholar knows, 50 healing lost on a reg Adlo is 100 effect lost, 225 on a crit)
- High crit builds get to roughly 1/4 crit, which is still RNG, even if it's nowhere near as unreliable as <10% crit
- Some would argue that Adlo is, after all, a rather small part of our healing. Between everything healed by Phys, Embrace or Lustrate and the fact that bubbles don't stack, I'd wager that no more than a third of my healing (counting Galvanize in here) on most encounters comes from Adlo/Succor

I'm now looking at different builds for i110 and just to toss out some numbers, the difference between my two candidates atm: crit vs det build. Crit build gains 92 crit (and 25 ssp) by dropping 82 det. Numbers are a bit hard to come by for det in Scholar heals, but far as my research and admittedly very rudimentary testing suggests, it should roughly be the 50 points of Adlo healing I mentioned earlier. Given the general impact of secondary stats on gameplay, I feel like neither build is gonna pull ahead as a clear winner. I guess if you just spammed Adlo/Succor 24/7 (wait for shield to drop), crit would be a lot more awesome, but every other spell seems to profit more from det than crit on a 1:1 comparison (some 110 items offer 1:1 trades, like chest and boots)

Any experience/opinions on det stacking Scholars? Does it work or is crit really the unchallanged king?

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Originally Posted by ManaKeKz

Any experience/opinions on det stacking Scholars? Does it work or is crit really the unchallanged king?

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Honestly it really doesn't matter which route you go as secondary stats have a fairly meek scaling that skill alone is better. That said I would still consider Crit to be king simply for the utility an Adlo crit brings to the table. Because while you may heal more with a Det based build that additional potency is coming at the cost of a GCD. Depending on the monster most adlo shields will pop after 1-2 attacks meaning you'll barely have 1 GCD of downtime before going back to the tank. Yet with an Adlo crit it could take a monster 4-5 hits to pop it which gives you 2-3 GCD's to use as you wish; throw out some stoneskins or DoTs, cast a succor, heal that one DRG, pop some peach confetti, ya know the important things. And while a Crit SCH is doing that the Det SCH will be pelting out physick's an the odd adlo to keep the tank steady. Also the difference in heal potency is actually smaller than you think. Using a healing calculator and plotting in the current i110 gear and focusing on Det and Crit, these are the values you end up with:

Det focused: Avg Heal/ 952 CritAdjHeal/ 1013 Crit%/ 12.65
Crit focused: Avg Heal/ 927 CritAdjHeal/ 1015 Crit%/ 19.06

So basically your choice is 25HP per heal or 6% crit, not much of a make or break situation. It's just that Adlo without a decent crit is kinda, well bad. It's essentially a 600pot cure at double the cost of physick an its 400pot. And over a 5-15min fight the difference in a 1/8 vs 1/5 crit chance becomes noticeable.

However, I guess depending on your playstyle there might be some merit to a Det focused SCH. From my experience some SCH's tend to use their adlo/succor's sparingly, preferring to use them for specific situations that call for them. These guys might benefit more from the consistent heals. While on the other hand some SCH's are pretty aggressive with mitigation, using adlo to physick's around a 1/4 ratio (sometimes 1/2 depending on content/phase) and succor every so often. Just go with what feels most comfortable really~

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Originally Posted by ItzKris

I'm only 38 on my Scholar and I know this is very false.
The macro for it is
/macroicon "Adloquium"
/ac Adloquium <t>
/pac "Embrace" <t>

And replace Adloquium for Physick when using Physick
Its amazing for burst heals.
And there is no delay unless you are on the move, but then its only delayed until the fairy gets to you. If she was placed then she will cast embrace just when you cast Physick or slightly slower.

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This is totally crap as long as you don't have a 2. Physic / Adlo without Macro on your bar. The fairy give you the Ability to Split heal targets, which a good SCH should use ;). If you only use this macro, you will have a ton of unnecessary overheal.

@Crit:

I'm a full Crit SCH and it's amazing which utility you get with a 1.5k Crit Adlo (3k Shield). So i would never Drop a shitload of Crit for only 2~3 MND. Also Det is a lil bit overrated for SCH, since you are missing the big Heals. You may increase your flat healing power, but it wont allow you to have some "spare" time to do something different.

Also i've got the feeling that Det got a Soft Cap for healing. Never saw some Theory crafting about it since 2.2

You both make good points on the general usefulness / utility of Adlo crits. I'll admit that determination gains (especially with as little as 50-80 difference) will likely be very unspectacular, so it sounds to me like the crit build is indeed a more useful route. Will try to be a bit more active about my Adlo usage, mp generally isn't an issue for me so I might even be using Physik too much. Thanks for the feedback!

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Originally Posted by Amaret

This is totally crap as long as you don't have a 2. Physic / Adlo without Macro on your bar. The fairy give you the Ability to Split heal targets, which a good SCH should use ;). If you only use this macro, you will have a ton of unnecessary overheal.

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For that purpose I made my macro cast Embrace on <mo> and Phys/Adlo on <t> - I can choose to split heals, focus heal or not control the fairy at all (placed fairies do a very decent job on tanks)

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That's not really how a sch is played. Even if a sch somehow combines their fairy into one cure dump, which no one wants to bring a sch in for, the fairy action is delayed by upto 5 seconds, not including the rouse that takes an extra action. If are claiming the fairy can heal like a whm, that's laughable.

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I'm not convinced this person has actually played SCH in any serious content, lol.

Yes, you can very easily combine you and your fairy's heal into a big Cure dump. You can either use a macro to initiate Embrace and Physick at exactly the same time, or you can just have Embrace keybound and press both buttons. The heals will land simultaneously for a combined 700 potency, compared to 650 potency for Cure 2. Nobody is saying that the fairy alone puts out as much healing as a WHM. But the fairy plus the scholar put out *more* single-target healing than a Cure 2 spamming WHM, for much less MP. You also say that nobody wants to bring a SCH in for big cure dumps, which makes no sense because single-target healing is *exactly* why you bring a SCH. The shields aren't the only thing SCH brings to the table.

Fairy actions are delayed by, at most, a quarter of a second unless you're playing on third world internet or something. If I press my Physick+Embrace macro and heal myself, the green combat text numbers appear at almost exactly the same time. Rouse is off the global cooldown, so it doesn't use an "extra action" any more than say Aetherflow or Divine Seal. If it takes you half of Rouse's duration to get a Whispering Dawn off then you should probably stop playing on satellite DSL.



Crit is the stat of choice for scholars because the class has mechanics that specifically take advantage of it like the double shield on Adlo and the spellspeed buff you get when the fairy crits, not because of particularly bad "multipliers" or whatever, as the formulas used to turn MND, DET, and potency into an actual heal are the same for both classes.