Holmgang and Foresight still.... Meh ? How I would do it

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

what the heck... Me and Kitru actually agree on something. The sky is falling lol.

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DOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!

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One thing I noticed since I've started leveling a SCH is that Foresight/FeatherFoot is WAR only means of mitigation till lvl 35 when they get Inner Beast, Followed by Storm path at 38 and Finally Vengeance at 46. Which is sad since both of those are really weak and thats they have for so long. So what you have are WARs who still get hit like Trucks until they reach their 40s.

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Something to remember is that PLDs don't get Shield Oath until 40. WARs get Defiance right at 30 so, even without the same CD suite as a PLD (which, until 40, is Rampart, Convalescence, Awareness, and Sentinel; you can also get Foresight via CC), WAR is still going to be nominally easier to heal because WAR would be healed as if it were a PLD with Rampart up *constantly* (especially since a WAR should also have at least Conv, Featherfoot, and Second Wind to augment their existing suite).

If anything, WAR is incredibly overpowered compared to PLD pre-40. I'd be pretty suspect of anyone claiming that WAR is somehow harder to heal than PLD pre-40 since the only explanation I can really come up with is penkac on the WAR's end.

Maybe ive had alot of bad WAR's. Seriously, I had one WAR today who complete ignore adds and did single target rotation and I kept getting threat because he didnt even tag them with flash or overpower. And another who refused to turn on defiance because he said he didnt like the -25% attack reduction. I can see if you way over geared, but if I have to spam my best heal to keep u alive and dps are on your heels in threat, its prolly for the greater good for you to turn on defiance. Ironically, All you see in dungeons now are WAR's. I rarely see PLD in dungeons anymore unless its a higher level PLD doing Duty Roulette.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Maybe ive had alot of bad WAR's.

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From the two anecdotes you've provided, I'm pretty sure that you're dealing with a lot of pebkac WARs (the same happens with pugs of all kinds; at release, I saw a lot more skilled WARs while leveling than skilled PLDs because PLD was where all of the idiots were flocking to). If a tank isn't getting aggro on everything or refuses to use their tank stance without *good* reason (and, honestly, the only good reason in a 4 man I can think of is Demon Wall; at any other time, you're better served requiring less healing so that the healer can spend less time looking at you and more time attacking), they're suffering from idiot syndrome.

Ignoring player skill, WARs are substantially stronger than PLD until PLD gets Shield Oath, at which point the two tanks level out, but, as most people are wont to say, it doesn't matter how strong a class is, you'll still suck if you put an idiot in charge of it.

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Originally Posted by MrDiezel

You dont use Second Wind as a panic? It is based off attack power (and can crit) so used under the right circumstances, its pretty good! Second to Thrill of Battle, though.

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"Under the right circumstances" is pretty much why I consider it's not a good panic button.

Honestly, the reason Holmgang is so bad is because if you're really about to receive a killing blow, something went terribly wrong anyway and either your healer(s) are dead or they're running for their lives and have given you up for dead anyway. Sure, it's possible that you may pop it seconds before a Benediction, but that takes perfect timing and coordination. And in a game were abilities may or may not go off in time due to so much lag, good luck doing anything with perfect timing.

I've found Holmgang to be quite useful when it's designed to be used. A Holmgang followed by Benediction after HP drop to 1 will save the day anytime.

Holmgang is frustrating when you look at fights like titan extreme. I would never use it in that fight. Ironically it doesn't work during landslide even though you are bound in place...but don't worry, Pally's Hallowed Ground prevents pushback.

That being said, fights like Ultima Holmgang saved me a few times, I think the duration could use an increase, it leaves almost zero room for error.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

I've found Holmgang to be quite useful when it's designed to be used. A Holmgang followed by Benediction after HP drop to 1 will save the day anytime.

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That's really the best use for it. Macro in party that you used it so a whm can do other stuff before bene.

the duration of not being able to get killed should be longer and in fights where the mob is immune to bind the war should not get bound either.

Foresight would be better if it increased magic defense too. Since it stacks with Protect it does get pretty decent. That change over increased parry would be much better imo.

A few things I've seen here need to be a little more informed or clarified. First while HG is the better cd holmgangs only down side is the bind. Asking for more duration is going to cost you in the long run, remember that HG is on a 7 min cd not 3. 4 sec less duration for 4 min less cd seems fair. The comment made about landslides knock back is just 0 dmg vs taking dmg, stoneskin could in theory have the same effect. That's just to clarify that HG does not prevent knock back. On the comment about taking x dmg before it falls off, HG doesn't work that way, you died to ultima because it can't be survived. Try to take ancient flare in CT you are still dead. Both abilities will save you against bad stacks on cad, HG is better since when it falls off you aren't at 1 hp. All of this is not balanced but close, remove the bind on both targets, still pull the mob, all is semi balanced if you consider recast too.

I agree that foresight is trash, it should be like 10-15 damage reduction on the same timer and recast with the enhanced for war only increasing duration NOT DR. Giving war another ability with more DR does not balance anything it just opens up plds blowing these forums up.

Holmgang is fine imo.

You shouldn't be able to move. You are invincible for 6 seconds...it needs restrictions.