How do certain "multi-hit" skills work?

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

just to say: it's not that hard to hit from behind with bootshine, or from the flank, even without any special skills or the like. For example bootshine: just run straight through the enemy and then use bootshine. There is a setting to automatically turn you towards the enemy when using a skill and it is activated by default. So you don't even have to turn yourself before using bootshine. Doing it like this you can hit an enemy pretty reliably from behind. you can do the same for flank hits, you don't need to turn towards the enemy before using the skill.

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I have been doing just that and are somewhat successful in it. The problem is that my success in applying those added benefits in solo fight without CC-ing enemy, mostly depends on luck and not my own skills. Will I be lucky enough to actually get the hit I just made counted as hit or miss?
That's the main point here. Not "Can I do it?".

It depends on how they fix it. The problem is, as an online game, there is always going to be lack somewhere, it's just a question of where they put it. They could make it so the server places the delay so everything is server-side, and you're merely sending commands while the server sends back the data on positioning and such. This would result in a "What you see is what happened", however this would mean a noticeable lag between putting in a command to move, and having that move execute. While this works well in games where you point and click to move, in a game like this where you hold a button down to walk forward, such a system would make moving a lot less precise.

Alternately, they could shift some more of the combat data client-side, so that position data in terms of combat is calculated on your computer, and then the OUTCOME is what's sent to the server. However, this would make the game easier as enemies would essentially be slower to react, especially for people with slower connections. Not to mention it would likely make it easier for cheaters.

In any case, I feel that this is a rather minor issue, considering the lag is minor enough that your skill animation didn't even finish before the monster turned around. Even if they were to fix this issue entirely, it would change nothing. Your chances of landing a position bonus if you circle around the monster would remain the same.

How in the hell would they the remain the same?! How?
Is it so difficult to understand the difference between a system where what you see is what you get and system where what you see is maybe what you get?
I understand that being a moderator on a fan-page may prevent you from being objective, but come on!

On the topic of fixing ... I don't know. One possibility would be to allow client-side actions to have priority when it comes to char actions Vs enemy's movement discrepancy. It would, of course, present other problems. Especially problems with security, which has already happened, but with proper protection it might be possible to do it this way. Or any other fix that helps.

P.S. I was honestly surprised by your words, hence my reaction. I apologize if I've been too harsh.

You're assuming that too much would change the same. If they removed all the lag, it wouldn't result in everything being the same except what you see happening. Removing all the lag would mean the mobs would react faster on your screen. Since that is what the lag is doing. Actions by everyone except you, including enemy movements, appears to happen a fraction of a second later than it does.

As for my position, that has nothing to do with my stance here. SE doesn't pay us a dime, and we call them out whenever they do things we don't agree with. What does influence my stance is a basic knowledge of networking and game design. A little lag is unavoidable, especially with the amount of data being transferred with an MMO. All they can do is try to shift the lag somewhere, and no matter where they put it, there will be problems.

You mentioned that client controls char movement and server controls monster movement. Who controls skill usage?

The player does. The truth is likely a bit more complicated than that (I didn't code the game myself, I'm going off of my own conjectures based on how the game's lag acts, and especially what actions you can still "do" when completely disconnected).

Basically, everything done with an input from the player can be considered "client-side". If you push you Bootshine button, that animation should go off right away. However, these commands need to be sent to the server, be calculated, and sent back before you can see how the monster reacted. Likewise, it's also up to the server to tell you the actions of monsters, NPCs, and players other than yourself.

It should be noted that even for so-called "client-side" actions, the results don't occur until the server receives that data. To use an extreme example, if your internet is disconnected and you hit a monster with Bootshine, the animation WILL play, but because you're disconnected the data never reaches the server, and the action never actually happens.

Do client and server have any kind of time or chronological synchronization? Can client communicate with a server by reporting a time of action, like "action performed at 14:00:15"? Now, I am not necessarily thinking about real time, it could be some sort of server, or game environment time. Is there anything like that?

I've played some MMOs that handle lag a bit differently, in which both mob and character actions are sent from the server to the client before the client displays them. In that case, you do in fact get to see what happened as the server saw it happen, but I don't think you'd get any better success, because the lag delay just occurs at a different point.

In that type of arrangement, you would see yourself as behind or beside an enemy, press the button to select a backstabbing or flanking attack, then while your client is confering with the server regarding your action, you'd see the mob turn to face you. Then you'd get the result of your action back from the server and watch your character attack the mob head-on with what you had hoped would be a backstab. What you see your character do (that head-on attack) matches the result, but it's still no more in line with what you had seen at the time you pressed the button to select your attack than FFXIV's pattern is.

As Urthdigger mentioned, that pattern also causes problems with simple movement. Whenever you're experiencing lag, there will be a delay between pressing a movement button and seeing your character move, so people have a tendency to overshoot how far they intended to run or turn. Players get very grumpy about even relatively minor lag in a game like that.

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Originally Posted by gamepob

Do client and server have any kind of time or chronological synchronization? Can client communicate with a server by reporting a time of action, like "action performed at 14:00:15"? Now, I am not necessarily thinking about real time, it could be some sort of server, or game environment time. Is there anything like that?

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No, and it'd be a little silly if it did because the game is running in real time. Imagine a player is fighting a monster solo, while an onlooker observes the fight. The player suffers a lag spike, and so his command hits the server a few seconds after he sends it, and the server has to retroactively apply his action after the moment has passed. How exactly would this be portrayed to the observer?

On another note, imagine if the player sends his commands during a lag spike, but before he hit it the monster moves out of range, or the player dies. According to the player's screen, he would have hit the monster. According to the server, the player was incapable at the time. How would this be resolved.

And finally, consider that you're coming up with a complicated system to solve... what, 1/10th a second's worth of lag? Game systems aren't perfect, and if they were worked on until they were, the games would never wind up released.

I understand the problem is more complex than it appears, but right now it doesn't feel like the game runs in real time. I feels like my char is mearly plastered onto the word and he has to guess what will happen. He has to be reactive instead of proactive.
They've put .3 sec of constant delay. That is something that is "easily" calculated and especially important, as a constant, the client and server can both handle it with the same amount of accuracy.
The synchronization I mentioned was meant for such constant delay. Not spikes or disconnects as they are random and rare occurrences.
It would solve solo fights, but would present a problem in group fights. Thanks for your help in understanding that. :)
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