Simple Fix to PLD

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

mog is correct. PLD is not broken, the dungeons and boss fights offer little challange to the tank as far as taking damage thus allowing tanks with weaker defenses to successfully tank, and in turn allowing a high dps tank speed up the time it takes to win the fights. this , and this alone is the only reason WAR is suggested over PLD, hate controll is not an issue with either tank and survivabilty is much higher with PLD. one tank is offensive the other is deffensive. that simple. Claiming WAR is superior in every aspect of tanking is just simply incorrect. to state that def dose nothing for damage deflection is also incorrect. as far as magic damage gose, PLD is still the best equiped tank to avoid magic damage. these , my friend , are all facts.

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LOL

Thanks for the comic relief.

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Originally Posted by Arcell

Well first off, Parry is actually superior to Block in a few ways. A full parry (foresight) reduces a physical attack to 0 damage. 0. Warrior has greater potential damage mitigation than Paladin, especially since blocks aren't very effective.

Second, DDs are NOT supposed to pull hate. If you're a DD and you're pulling hate, you're doing something wrong. You should try to maximize your damage and ride into the red sure but you should never pull hate. Pulling hate can cause some very unfortunate issues for the party, such as getting everyone killed. If you're dealing with anything with a conal AoE attack, if someone pulls hate and that enemy is now facing the mages and archers for instance, now they are going to get hit with it. With Uraeus and Dodore it's petrify, with Coincounter it's 100 tonze, with Buffalo it's Onrush. A lot of bad situations. Enmity management is a group effort.

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First part, that's what I said the problem is, it's broken, the traditional Uber tank is like you just said, not as good as the next choice. Perhaps I didn't say it very clearly, rereading my own post I can see where it sounded like I was actually saying that PLD has better mitigation than WAR as is, what I meant was those things would be what make PLD Uber tank again.

Second, sorry I may have phrased that poorly, when I say pull hate, I mean into the red, not have it chasing me about, I use hate shedding abilities too, I'm not a moron lol. I thought that I said that, but when I posted that I think I was working on ~2hrs sleep in 48 hrs due to some truly off the wall insomnia.

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Originally Posted by Klive

One of the issues with paladins is just too many buttons to push to play well, hence the all lodestone sigs on people mashing buttons. I had an idea to fix this, that isn't a flat damage reduction.

Make outmaneuver and divine veil buff more like rampage. Only one can be one at a time and make them have different uses. My idea is make outmaneuver increase block rate keep doing what its does, but the buff doesn't have a duration; possibly increase the block rate more than it is now. Make divine veil decrease damage taken by a %, amount the DEVs should decide, and still have the AoE regen effect.

This way, you have two tanking toggle buffs that are totally different and can't on at the same time. Also, makes playing the paladin feel less frantic.

Now you would...

When you need TP/MP and blocking, toggle outmaneuver up.

When you need flat damage reduction and party healing, toggle divine veil up.

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That actually sounds good. I think that can make all the difference needed to cement PLD as the defensive tank without having to mess around with traits and stats and all that jazz that may take more work and resources.

+1

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Originally Posted by Klive

One of the issues with paladins is just too many buttons to push to play well, hence the all lodestone sigs on people mashing buttons. I had an idea to fix this, that isn't a flat damage reduction.

Make outmaneuver and divine veil buff more like rampage. Only one can be one at a time and make them have different uses. My idea is make outmaneuver increase block rate keep doing what its does, but the buff doesn't have a duration; possibly increase the block rate more than it is now. Make divine veil decrease damage taken by a %, amount the DEVs should decide, and still have the AoE regen effect.

This way, you have two tanking toggle buffs that are totally different and can't on at the same time. Also, makes playing the paladin feel less frantic.

Now you would...

When you need TP/MP and blocking, toggle outmaneuver up.

When you need flat damage reduction and party healing, toggle divine veil up.

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Probably one of the better suggestions I've seen for Paladin, and would help a bit with some of the MP issues that will inevitable pop back up once the cap is raised and it's not feasible to wear the AF armor anymore to boot.

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Originally Posted by Aceofspades

one tank is offensive the other is deffensive. that simple. Claiming WAR is superior in every aspect of tanking is just simply incorrect.

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Umm just HOW drastically different are these two jobs defensively, I'd really love to know. I mean my WAR can wear the exact same gear as my PLD and only have a small difference of about 25 defense just because of a shield and an extra defensive trait, definitely NOT a groundbreaking difference between the two without going all out double/triple melding a shield like you did.

PLD: WAR can use sentinel, sure its only 30% which pales in comparison to PLD's 50%.
WAR: Yeah WAR's Sentinel isn't quite up to stuff. Oh wait! Vengeance also gives WAR a 50% reduction so that's two damage mitigation abilities to cycle through!

PLD: Well, PLD can block 100% with divine Veil and on for 20 seconds, plus random blocks that negate.
WAR: Cool!
PLD: I still take roughly 50%~ of the full damage though.
WAR: Wait a minute! My WAR parries all the time too and I take maybe 0~20% of the damage.

PLD: Well PLD has Aegis Boon which totally negates magic and physical damage for one attack and heals me.
WAR: That's nice, WAR gets an ability called Foresight that Blocks any magical / physical attack.

PLD: I can heal myself too with Cure and Holy Succor.
WAR: Sweet! I have Bloodbath, Rampage, and Second Wind to heal myself.

I could go on, but I think my point stands there isn't any real game-breaking difference between the two jobs in the tank category.

And before you bring this point up again.

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"If a WAR is being a defensive tank, they're hurting their DPS considerably."

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I refute that with

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"The base damage of the weapon is the primary factor in damage and has the biggest influence in every DoWs overall capacity to deal damage. The attack that may be lost from stacking defense does not drastically effect WAR's DPS due to the limited conflicts between defensive and offensive stats in gear and materia. The fact WAR can stack it's VIT up to help both it's defense and physical damage only continues to give WAR an upper hand in this dilemma to make it both highly offensive and defensive."

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Klive

One of the issues with paladins is just too many buttons to push to play well, hence the all lodestone sigs on people mashing buttons. I had an idea to fix this, that isn't a flat damage reduction.

Make outmaneuver and divine veil buff more like rampage. Only one can be one at a time and make them have different uses. My idea is make outmaneuver increase block rate keep doing what its does, but the buff doesn't have a duration; possibly increase the block rate more than it is now. Make divine veil decrease damage taken by a %, amount the DEVs should decide, and still have the AoE regen effect.

This way, you have two tanking toggle buffs that are totally different and can't on at the same time. Also, makes playing the paladin feel less frantic.

Now you would...

When you need TP/MP and blocking, toggle outmaneuver up.

When you need flat damage reduction and party healing, toggle divine veil up.

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Can not say I agree with this, even tho I do agree that there are ALOT of actions to keep up with on PLD, comboing Devine veil and outmaneuver and timing this well, a PLD can very quickly refill his TP and MP bar. If SE ever wanted to reduce the number of actions a PLD has they can simply combine the hate generated by voke, wardrum, and flash, into one action. only down side to this is voke is great for when a single mob pull is needed where the others are AOE vokes. having more buttons to keep track of dose make the job harder, but mastering the job as it is makes one that much better of a player. My question is, why should SE make anyjob easier simply for players who are apearntly not that good? I am not an "elitest" but making somthing easier shouldnt be the fix all to any problem. If PLD is too complicated for anyone, go tank on WAR, no one is saying you cant or shouldnt. But simply because YOU can not do well on PLD dose not mean the job is broken , especially when , although few, others do considerably well with the job , even compared to a good WAR. MP consumption is the only real issue I have with PLD at the moment, that and I would love to see magic defense make a comeback. Simply by making holy succor an instant cast compairable to mnk's second wind, you add to pld's ability to self heal and at the same time reduce mp consumption alot. As far as magic defense gose, reason I would like to see that come back, even without buffs your tank , weither war or pld, should never take same damage as your dps jobs like mnk, brd, or drg. simply adding magic defense in the same way they add normal defense to gear should solve this problem. Or add a generic "all elemental resistance" , only down side to this is not all magic damage can be defended with elemental resistance.

If it would make a differance I would repost the screen shots of my war and pld in same gear, excluding weapons. and the differances are more then minor. as far as damage deflection, the shield dose alot more then given credit , Realy pointless in argueing these facts simply because the only response I get back is from WAR fan boys who are pissed they simply can not tank on PLD, I guess the job was awsome when Skill wasnt involved...

btw, if you want your shield to block more damage simply get a shield with more "block" on it... I know, rocket science right?

Ace, it's hard for me, or anyone else for that matter to take your opinion on hate management and survivability seriously when you have yet to clear any of the current content let alone done speedruns. I think you have a couple of valid points, but trying to tell all the people who have finished all the content in the game that they need to learn to play probably isn't going to get you anywhere. Come back with some fraps and parses once you've finished everything and it might be easier to state your case.

Uhm. Stop triple posting. If you're gonna post, at least make it easy to read. I can't even humor your silly assertions when they're walls of text with naught in the way of formatting.

You're credibility already went down the drain with your first post a couple of days ago. You're kidding yourself if you think you're being taken seriously lol.