We're all DDs now >.>

Appreciate the information and the source. :)

I haven't had trouble necessarily doing it combining it with blood price/dark dance/mind without empowering them but it's a pain in the ass for the dps increase when I can just work on self healing (which I realize isn't great).
I think paladins need more if this is to remain the state of things. I should have been clear. I think burst damage is more important for stance dancing as a tank for timing. Sword Oath may give a bigger buff out of both tank stances, but it's still off auto attacks. Clearly it's just my opinion, but that's kind of a lame way to increase their output.

I guess I just agree with Yoshida. Tanks should tank. Healers should heal. DPS should DPS. I'm glad they're changing Cleric Stance and Mind. Not a huge fan of going back to STR/VIT for tanks though.

The tools are great in the hands of a skilled player, and awful in the hands of an average to mediocre player. I support people wanting to stick to their role.

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Originally Posted by saber_alter

DRK's toolkit has more than enough utility to mitigate damage outside of grit. two unconditional damage reducers, and a da'd 30% vs magic on a 60 second cd. Even then, i have never had problems stance dancing on DRK. Prediction is part of the job.


their fault for forgetting that they have a perfectly good defensive stance.



here is a comparison of dps for all tanks post 3.2 changes. from the data collected, switching to sword oath increases a paladin's dps by around 200.

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I had to trim a lot and remove the quote to get my post to submit. See above. Mainly I think you're right, and I was being overzealous. I can admit when I'm wrong about something, but I still think Sword Oath is garbage. ;p (Also I HATE using Dark Dance or Dark Mind without empowering them, but that's my problem.)

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Originally Posted by Kitfox

Sword Oath is +10-12% of PLD damage when turned on the last time I checked it (fflogs). That's more than Deliverance with its 5% and small crit boost. But I concede, in practical sense it's the second most powerful offensive switch, just because Defiance on WAR is so punishing. It's still more powerful than DRK dropping Grit though. (No Grit +20%, SwO 15%+10%)

Of course, you but said to keep the Grit on. Keeping Grit on is a bigger DPS loss than not having it on and then turning it on for a tank buster if needed. Here, your words, not mine:

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You're not wrong. As you can see above I basically just said I like life leeching and I'm lazy. Don't get me wrong though, I love dropping Grit and going HAM with Blood Weapon.

I find this thread sort of hilarious considering the CNJ questline features a healer suffering because she refuses to DPS until she accepts you gotta do both to be a true CNJ.

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Originally Posted by Doki

I find this thread sort of hilarious considering the CNJ questline features a healer suffering because she refuses to DPS until she accepts you gotta do both to be a true CNJ.

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Goes a little against what Yoshida says in interviews, so that is pretty damn funny. I never did CNJ past 15.

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Originally Posted by Doki

I find this thread sort of hilarious considering the CNJ questline features a healer suffering because she refuses to DPS until she accepts you gotta do both to be a true CNJ.

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That has been posted no less than three times in this thread alone, and it is out of context. Just like all storyline content, the storyline content does not teach you anything. Go review the the cutscene, it's the very last one. There is no mention of anything except not using her lifeforce to heal, but to use nature to heal. Every time someone posts something about the conjurer storyline, they haven't even read the thread.

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Originally Posted by Miste

So yes, in the end you are talking about stuff you just don't have full experience with.

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Yet more Ad Hominem attacks. I've explained why my character has ilevel 180 gear because I played the content right up to Alexander, and there was NO better gear than ilevel 180 at the last time I played the game and have been working on the convoluted Anima Weapon time sink.

Have I personally insulted you at all during this thread? No. You don't endure people to your side of a discussion by asserting that they are not as elitist as you. Half the nonsense coming from the "pro-dps healer" side of the argument is "no, you're not agreeing with me" or is pushed by hardcore raiders trying to twist the arms of regular players, and the other side of the argument is "Yoshi-P said so", "I played a healer to heal, go away", and "It's my subscription, and I will do what I want with it"

This thread is this image in a nutshell:
http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/argument_victory.png

https://xkcd.com/1081/

One side thinks they are winning because they don't see anything wrong with how they play, the other side thinks they are winning because that's what they believe to be true. Which side you think you are on doesn't matter.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Yet more Ad Hominem attacks.

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Stop. It's not Ad Hominem to say you have no clue what you're talking about due to lack of experience, considering the entire discussion can be boiled down to comfort gained FROM experience. You're just winging it around like saying people are bullying you or Ad Hominem means their points have no value. It's not insulting to say someone couldn't be more wrong, spreading mathematical falsities and the like. You just hate being told you're wrong or don't have the experience to fully comment that you TAKE it as an insult rather than what it is- an observation.

I mean, you actually claim that Regen is a "request from the tank" only spell and that the average tank will struggle with your Regen over the DPS's bursts and AOE. That. Is. Absurd.

Is your tank Titan-Egi? I'd actually love some insight from the Tank forums to see how many of them over there struggle with keeping threat off the healer with Regen after the pull is established and the monsters are grouped.

It's more like...

Forums: The sky is blue.
You: No, I went outside once and it was definitely grey.
Forums: It really is blue, look out of the window.
You: No it's not, I am experienced with the outside and it is definitely grey.
Forums: Go outside and look so you will see that it is blue.
You: No, it is grey and only an elitist person would claim it is blue!
Forums: ???

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

One side thinks they are winning because they don't see anything wrong with how they play, the other side thinks they are winning because that's what they believe to be true. Which side you think you are on doesn't matter.

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I think most people are on the side that understands how regen works and uses it to create significant gaps in healing. I'm a noob healer and my WHM is lvl 55, and even I can create significant gaps in my healing, its not just "uber elitist raid healers". I just came out of a sohm al run where I was actually struggling to not DPS because I didn't want to idle. I spent more time in cleric than out of it, and the DRK was brand new.

Oh, and I tested your enmity issue with regen. After the tank pulled, I waited for 1.5 GCDs before putting a regen up, I shot straight up to... 4th place on the enmity meter, out of 4.

Look up dunning-kruger effect, it is a big influence of your argument.

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

I'd actually love some insight from the Tank forums to see how many of them over there struggle with keeping threat off the healer with Regen after the pull is established and the monsters are grouped.

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On a single mob pull Regen wouldn't effect anything it's when its a pull of linking mobs that causes issues I generally apply Regen after the tank establish hate so mobs dont b-line to me, then i divine seal Regen and swiftcast medic II with bubble and then I dps with little concern. Dungeons are that freaking easy their could be room to make healing the group somewhat more focus but I digress. /Shrug

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Yet more Ad Hominem attacks. I've explained why my character has ilevel 180 gear because I played the content right up to Alexander, and there was NO better gear than ilevel 180 at the last time I played the game and have been working on the convoluted Anima Weapon time sink.

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Nope. Not attacks. Just telling you the truth that experience in higher duties while being over geared as a healer matters if you are going to talk about downtime.

I've explained that your character being i180 really limits your experience with being an over geared healer in HW content which therefore makes you ignorant of how much downtime a geared healer has in that content. Like the video Ama linked....You've never even experienced Xelphatol let alone with 10-20 above minimum item level.

The only piece of level 60 HW content you are "over the item level" for is ....Aetherchemical Research Facility...so yeah...it is just the truth.