Please Remove the Materia Melding Crafter Restriction

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

I've yet to see a compelling reason to keep it. Any reason I've seen is either a faulty Appeal to Tradition, ("It's always been this way, why change it?") or an incredible exaggeration overstating how essential, rewarding, or compelling clicking a confirm button is as a mechanic.

In the absence of a counter-argument, "because it's inconvenient" is reason enough.

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And this is exactly my point.

The materia melding system isn't broken in any way shape or form and functioning perfectly. Yes, it's a minor inconvenience at best. Why does it need to be removed then? Why waste the Dev's resources on it when they could be doing something else?

There isn't a compelling reason to really keep it, and in the very same token there isn't a compelling reason to NOT keep it either.

So, to the people who want to see the system changed - give a good reason why you want to see the system changed. It exists already, it does exactly what the dev's intended it to do, it's not broken at all. There's no real need to change it short of it being an inconvenience to a select player base.

If the side who supports this change can't get past this hurdle, then there is no reason for the Dev team to spend the resources necessary to make this change as the system is already implemented and functional without issue.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

This really doesn't address anything that I have said.

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It actually does, whether you choose to listen is your business. Protect, while not only making a difference in solo instances, is also taken off if someone dies, making it harder to recover from death in a raid environment.

You also don't NEED melds for any content period (except perhaps crafting and gathering ironically). Melds just make it slightly easier and give you an edge. The fights are designed so that you can clear with top tier raid gear without melds, melding only makes the fights more manageable, and rewards players for putting in the effort (lets bold that, it is a key word).

Now lets address your post:

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

That said, I am happy that there is a way to get someone else to do it for me, but I don't see why this is considered a good thing.

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if you scroll back a page or two (edit: now at the bottom of this post), you will see I answered this at length by saying that all classes depend on each other (it isn't necessarily about being social), and it is a system that promotes levelling all classes (note: promotes, not requires) in order to get the best out of the system, we have this system to keep crafting and gathering relevant, which is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

If you sacrifice yourself 18 slots of Tier V materia, that is a significant detriment to your character in a raid environment

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see above (superficial in that you don't need the bonus to clear the raids)

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

In this sense, another alternative is to add a quality rating between being able to meld yourself or as a crafter. Perhaps it would be an OK compromise to have non-crafters be able to slot up to Tier IV themselves, but require a crafter for Tier V? I don't particularly like this as it keeps the restriction, but at least it makes it feel a bit less 'unnecessary'.

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So you are saying that we should complicate the system massively for... no benefit to the balance of the game as a whole? You also don't like the restriction, but all classes have restriction, that is what gives them relevance in a team based game.


We call what you are asking for homogenization, and the devs only do it when it is truly necessary. I.e. I will only ever support this when there is a situation where battle classes not having melding becomes a serious detriment to groups (like the homogenization of protect and stoneskin across healers).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Battle classes need crafters to meld (but request meld is a thing)
Battle classes need crafters to repair (though not really, repair NPC is a thing)
Battle classes need crafters to make gear (lol, no, im not even putting this)
Battle classes need crafters for.... glamour......

Crafters need gathering classes to function cost effectively
Crafters need battle classes to function cost effectively (LTW)
Crafters need battle classes for dungeon drops
Crafters need battle classes to even get into the expansion/do story content (thanks Sida for pointing that out)
Crafters need OTHER PLAYERS CRAFTERS for specialist (cant even level to get out of that one).

Gatherers need crafting classes for gear/bait.
Gatherers need crafting classes for melds (far more than battle classes)
Gatherers need battle classes to get into the expansion/do story content

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I'll just leave this here as a citation so that it is easier to understand

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

snip.

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I appreciate the thoughtful response. Unfortunately I'm not out, and want to provide you with an equally thoughtful post. I'll edit this with a reply when I am home.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

And this is exactly my point.

The materia melding system isn't broken in any way shape or form and functioning perfectly. Yes, it's a minor inconvenience at best. Why does it need to be removed then? Why waste the Dev's resources on it when they could be doing something else?

There isn't a compelling reason to really keep it, and in the very same token there isn't a compelling reason to NOT keep it either.

So, to the people who want to see the system changed - give a good reason why you want to see the system changed. It exists already, it does exactly what the dev's intended it to do, it's not broken at all. There's no real need to change it short of it being an inconvenience to a select player base.

If the side who supports this change can't get past this hurdle, then there is no reason for the Dev team to spend the resources necessary to make this change as the system is already implemented and functional without issue.

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The amount of resources it would realistically take is an absolute pittance. As I've said before, it's evidently a toggle that only checks to see if you have a class at 60, and then un-grays a confirm button. You could make the same argument against literally any Quality of Life change to any class' mechanics. "Why make MCH procs show up more clearly other than 'it's inconvenient'? It's just wasting resources that could be spent on everyone else that doesn't play MCH."

Streamlining and removing inconvenience is an incredibly common reason for changes in MMORPGs. It's reason enough on it's own unless there's a compelling reason against it. (As in, the inconvenience is serving the gameplay in some manner.)

Oh it's inconvienient for me to level up a healer because I find it boring and I want to play healer in level 60 content. Just give me the level 60 healer.

You are asking that.

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Originally Posted by AlphaSonic

Oh it's inconvienient for me to level up a healer because I find it boring and I want to play healer in level 60 content. Just give me the level 60 healer.

You are asking that.

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Healers, well known for hitting only 1 button, as well as their ability to craft things in addition to their 1 button healing. /sarcasm

No, we're not.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

The amount of resources it would realistically take is an absolute pittance. As I've said before, it's evidently a toggle that only checks to see if you have a class at 60, and then un-grays a confirm button. You could make the same argument against literally any Quality of Life change to any class' mechanics. "Why make MCH procs show up more clearly other than 'it's inconvenient'? It's just wasting resources that could be spent on everyone else that doesn't play MCH."
)

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When you're removing a functionality of a class and making it available to everyone else, that's hardly comparable to a QoL change to a specific job, nevermind that the latter is a persistent, occurring gameplay function versus one that happens as often as you get a gear upgrade from 3.2 content

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

Streamlining and removing inconvenience is an incredibly common reason for changes in MMORPGs. It's reason enough on it's own unless there's a compelling reason against it. (As in, the inconvenience is serving the gameplay in some manner.

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It's a line that needs to be threaded carefully. You don't want to streamline it so much that classes or specs within the same classes (which WoW unfortunately tapped into after catacylsm) that they lose their individuality in the long run.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

When you're removing a functionality of a class and making it available to everyone else, that's hardly comparable to a QoL change to a specific job, nevermind that the latter is a persistent, occurring gameplay function versus one that happens as often as you get a gear upgrade from 3.2 content


It's a line that needs to be threaded carefully. You don't want to streamline it so much that classes or specs within the same classes (which WoW unfortunately tapped into after catacylsm) that they lose their individuality in the long run.

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Were you against the removal of GraniteSkin? Making Stoneskin baseline for all healers? Were you upset that WHMs lost a very tangible benefit? Or were you relieved that there was one less inconvenience that only the WHM should be stone-skinning everyone since theirs was the best?

Calling a confirm button "gameplay" is a misnomer. It's a mechanic, but there's no interactivity to be had that can't be said the same of a random number generator.

And your second point is just slippery when applied to this situation.

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Originally Posted by CosmicKirby

The amount of resources it would realistically take is an absolute pittance. As I've said before, it's evidently a toggle that only checks to see if you have a class at 60, and then un-grays a confirm button. You could make the same argument against literally any Quality of Life change to any class' mechanics. "Why make MCH procs show up more clearly other than 'it's inconvenient'? It's just wasting resources that could be spent on everyone else that doesn't play MCH."

Streamlining and removing inconvenience is an incredibly common reason for changes in MMORPGs. It's reason enough on it's own unless there's a compelling reason against it. (As in, the inconvenience is serving the gameplay in some manner.)

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I find this request is different from other requests because it does directly affect crafter's. Yes, even if the crafter does the meld for free, removing the step does change the way people interact in this game (even if that interaction is literally just a /sh and a "please click here"). Because of that, I personally do see the requested change as what you described as "an inconvenience that is serving the gameplay in some manner".

Time will tell if S-E agrees or disagrees.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

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You are muddying the waters. Whether or not this change is worth a developer's time is irrelevant. You could make the same argument for almost all quality of life type requests.

The definition of 'broken' as it pertains to a feature is subjective. You say it's not broken because it works as the developers intended. I say that it is flawed because much like the housing conundrum, I find the restrictions around melding to be too severe. Guess what? Housing also works as the developers intended. Perhaps that system should not be changed either.

This isn't even about whether or not people are willing to level crafting. This is about giving a wider amount of people access to a feature. A feature that has become more relevant with its addition to raid gear. Frankly, the system in place for melds now sucks. It needs to be changed or enhanced. How? I don't know. There have been a couple of good suggestions in the previous pages. However the most vocal of posters have chosen to ignore them, in favor of acting indignant that there should be a change to the sanctity of crafting.

Melds do not define crafting. Anyone pushing that is bullshitting you and/or themselves. Just sit back, take a deep breathe, and seriously think about it for a moment. If tomorrow SE gave Mutamix the ability to meld materia for X gil. How would that really impact Crafters?

There would be no impact. Crafting wouldn't suddenly be less alluring. There would not be a sudden decline of people leveling crafts.

If anything you'd see an increase in materia sales because more people would have easy access to melds and Mutamix would be one busy goblin.