SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

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Originally Posted by Crevox

we're supposed to be "enfeeble magic users",

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Source?

Or is this another biased predisposition from a prior FF you particularly enjoyed?

Because this is the lore from the main website:

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The beast tribes of Eorzea worship and summon forth beings known as primals, among which are Ifrit, Garuda, and Titan. Yet what is a god to one man is a demon to another, for the city-states of Eorzea see these beings as a grave threat to their collective survival.
In times immemorial, there lived mages who had not only the power to summon the primals, but also the means to transmute the primals' essences, thus binding them to their will. Known simply as summoners, the existence of these men and women and their arcane art have been all but lost to the ages.

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I'm still waiting for someone to answer these:

What is a Summoner? Why is the FFXIV Summoner, not a Summoner?

Nobody has been able to answer except for personal anecdotes.

Want to know why? There is no defined Summoner. There is no, "THIS is a Summoner!"

They have all been vastly different, both mechanically and from a lore stand point, not to mention mechanically a "Summoner" using summons has never been optimal, or sometimes intended, in their actual gameplay(Eiko/Garnet from IX, for example. They have summons, but it's more of a "side" to them).


With that in mind, I'll ask for an answer again.

What is a Summoner? Why is the FFXIV Summoner, not a Summoner?

Don't answer with personal anecdotes or rhetoric. "It was more pet-based in XI!"
1) This isn't XI.
2) Summons were different in XI compared to all other FFs. Never saw someone complain there, especially when they were all very weak for a very long time(except for every 2 hours). There wasn't some big uproar about being a worse WHM, so why is there this uproar here?

never played any mmo if you don't count runescape from when I was younger.
so I am coming into ff14arr fresh faced and free of any nostalgia for older games(Atleast mmo wise)

I have too say I am loving the smn class so far,From the dots too the looks of the smns(they could be bigger maybe1.5x times)and I feel it all comes together nicely and is a ton of fun.
that being said I do have some quirks about the class.the most obvious is the inability too control the pet while casting,its beyond annoying and needs too be fixed.
I feel like I would love too see more debuffs with the class maybe they can tie them into the summon,i don't know but I would love too see more of them other then virus.
also maybe having more skills based on the pet besides a heal and the just do more damage skills would be fantastic.maybe have set of toggle abilities that add certain buffs too your smns like how songs work for bards but just for your smn.


but overall I love the way the class works and im enjoying every minute of waiting in the duty finder too play him.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

What is a Summoner? Why is the FFXIV Summoner, not a Summoner?

Nobody has been able to answer except for personal anecdotes.

Want to know why? There is no defined Summoner. There is no, "THIS is a Summoner!"

They have all been vastly different, both mechanically and from a lore stand point, not to mention mechanically a "Summoner" using summons has never been optimal, or sometimes intended, in their actual gameplay(Eiko/Garnet from IX, for example. They have summons, but it's more of a "side" to them).


With that in mind, I'll ask for an answer again.

What is a Summoner? Why is the FFXIV Summoner, not a Summoner?

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This has actually been gone over numerous times already. The reason XIV's Summoner does not feel like a Summoner is entirely because the Summons themselves don't feel like they should. The Summoners have been different in each game, but the Summons have stayed mostly the same. You don't agree with many of us on the usefulness of the Summons and I am not re-opening that can of worms, however they have almost always felt the same.

Using Ifrit as an example here, since he appears in many FF games, he is known for having a strong fire based attack around the time you gain access to him(rarely does it keep up with endgame spells though as he is often one of the first summons gotten). In XIV, the Primal Ifrit is what Summoner fans expect Ifrit to be or feel like, the egi comes no where close to meeting that expectation for a couple of reasons.

First outside of enkindle, the egi has no fire based attacks. Second enkindle has a long cool down, gotten very late, and barely keeps up with a BLM's spammable Fire 3. Which means Ifrit-egi has barely any connection to fire other than looks, and the signature move feels absolutely horrible to use when know that a BLM can pretty much do the same all day long.

Which makes the Summoner lack the feel it should have, and that feel is why many people wanted to play Summoner. People who want to play Pld expect it to feel a certain way, same with any of the other jobs as well. If this was not a FF game, there would not likely be the disconnect on the feel of Summoner, however FF Summons are expected to have a certain feel to them. And that feel is more important than their strength.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

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Ifrit-Egi embodies the theme of Ifrit from previous FF, so I don't know where this is coming from. Enkindle, the stun, the AoE Fire attack.

And then what else? A reflect shield. What does heat/fire represent? If you touch it, you're going to get burned.

This isn't Ifrit, by the way. It's Ifrit-Egi. We never could, or were planned, to summon the primals. At all. To expect Ifrit, when from the beginning of the reveal it's been stated otherwise, is asinine.

It seems to me that your post is mostly directed at a visual nature.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

Ifrit-Egi embodies the theme of Ifrit from previous FF, so I don't know where this is coming from. Enkindle, the stun, the AoE Fire attack.

And then what else? A reflect shield. What does heat/fire represent? If you touch it, you're going to get burned.

This isn't Ifrit, by the way. It's Ifrit-Egi. We never could, or were planned, to summon the primals. At all. To expect Ifrit, when from the beginning of the reveal it's been stated otherwise, is asinine.

It seems to me that your post is mostly directed at a visual nature.

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It has nothing to do with the visual aspects of it. Titan is actually more known for the stuns than Ifrit. Enkindle, which is not tied to any Summon in particular, is what causes the Egi to use Hellfire, a signature attack of Ifrit, that seems to be really underwhelming in its current iteration and therefor does not feel right. The reflect shield also feels very out of place on something tied to Ifrit, even with the loose connection you provided. Ifrit is known for two things, offense and fire, which the Egi barely touches on both.

And to get even more on the feel of the Egi's being off, the only non-superficial difference Emerald Carbuncle and Garuda-Egi, and Topaz Carbuncle and Titan is Enkindle. And the only differences between Titan-Egi, and Ifrit-Egi besides Enkindle is 20 extra potency, order get skills, and instead of damage reduction get a damage reflect. The Egi's might have better base stats than the Carbuncles, but that does nothing to make them feel right.

We don't expect the Egis to have the same power as a full blown Primal, we expect a certain feel that is lacking. The Ifrit-Egi that you have to fight to unlock Summoner had that feel to it, but the ones we get to use do not. As if you don't take out the nails in that fight fast enough, he will come over and just blast you hard enough to likely to one shot you, a lot like Primal Ifrit does. Difference there is even if get rid of the nail, Primal Ifrit will still take out a heafty chunk of your health.

Maybe to get you to understand this better, imagine THM's job unlock being Thief instead of Black Mage. It would not feel right at all, even if it was implemented very well.

The definition of DoTs in 1.0 were "enfeebling magic" and they were enhanced by "enfeebling magic potency." The original concept of Arcanist, described in letters from the producer/etc, was that they would specialize in "enfeebling magic."

And, by all means, we currently do. But at the moment, our utility could be stronger and more broad to make things more interesting.

Meh, I expected a classic Final Fantasy summoner... and they gave us a WoW Warlock clone.

It's not a weak class at all, but it's boring and uninteresting.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Maybe to get you to understand this better, imagine THM's job unlock being Thief instead of Black Mage. It would not feel right at all, even if it was implemented very well.

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And this is exactly where my previous post was correct.

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Or is this another biased predisposition from a prior FF you particularly enjoyed?

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You are unable to accept the fact that, hey, Summoner changes.

It has changed.

And the change in FFXIV is something you don't like.

However, say you don't like it. Don't say it isn't a Summoner.


To add to this, why didn't you, or any other person, complain in FFXI? Summoner's were abysmally weak, except every 2 hours. I can take a guess. I'm guessing people dealt with it because the Summons just looked like carbon-copies of the actual beings. I mean, after all, you are complaining about "feel"(power, from your post), and arguably the Summons in FFXI were weaker in comparison(except every 2 hours).

I mean, Ifrit boosting the power of everyone in the party, not himself, is certainly Ifrit, right?
Shiva and Ramuh giving Ice/Thunder Spikes is what they should be doing, right? What about Shiva KICKING/Slapping the enemy? Certainly, THAT is Shiva?
Leviathan healing/dispelling the party is what it should be doing, right? Or Leviathan lowering the enemies attack?


Please. None of that is what a "Summoner" or "Pimal" embodies, if we go by what you say, but no one complained. Even so, I'm fine with it. I'm fine with what XI did with Summoner's. I'm fine with what XIV did with Summoner's.

Want to know why? I accept that it changes. I accept that there is no single definition of a Summoner. I accept that, over the course of the games, a Summoner has not always focused on Summoning. I accept each "Summoner" within its own universe.

For FFXIV, Summoner fits. It's fine the way it is.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

You are unable to accept the fact that, hey, Summoner changes.

It has changed.

And the change in FFXIV is something you don't like.

However, say you don't like it. Don't say it isn't a Summoner.

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I have no issue with changes, however I also understand the importance of how something should feel when playing it. If it doesn't feel and look right, a major disconnect happens. Names go a long way in establishing expectations. I rather enjoy ACN, the problem here is SCH feels more like a SMN than SMN does. Summoner is not the only job this happens to in XIV either, Bard has the same issue but to a much lesser degree.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

To add to this, why didn't you, or any other person, complain in FFXI? Summoner's were abysmally weak, except every 2 hours. I can take a guess. I'm guessing people dealt with it because the Summons just looked like carbon-copies of the actual beings. I mean, after all, you are complaining about "feel"(power, from your post), and arguably the Summons in FFXI were weaker in comparison(except every 2 hours).

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Guess what, plenty of people complained about the state Summoner was in for XI for balance reasons, not because of a disconnect with the over-arching theme that people like playing a Final Fantasy Summoner for. And I was all for Summoner getting adjustments it sorely needed.

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Originally Posted by Kevee

I mean, Ifrit boosting the power of everyone in the party, not himself, is certainly Ifrit, right?
Shiva and Ramuh giving Ice/Thunder Spikes is what they should be doing, right? What about Shiva KICKING/Slapping the enemy? Certainly, THAT is Shiva?
Leviathan healing/dispelling the party is what it should be doing, right? Or Leviathan lowering the enemies attack?


Please. None of that is what a "Summoner" or "Pimal" embodies, if we go by what you say, but no one complained. Even so, I'm fine with it. I'm fine with what XI did with Summoner's. I'm fine with what XIV did with Summoner's.

Want to know why? I accept that it changes. I accept that there is no single definition of a Summoner. I accept that, over the course of the games, a Summoner has not always focused on Summoning. I accept each "Summoner" within its own universe.

For FFXIV, Summoner fits. It's fine the way it is.

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This whole thing is not about the Final Fantasy Summoner archetype being changed slightly, but the fact that this iteration of Summoner does not fit that archetype for many. Which makes it a thematic problem, not a gameplay problem. They could of called XIV's Summoner a number of different things and avoided this all together, but they called it a Summoner which comes with certain thematic expectations. Everyone's ideal Summoner is going to be different, but one key thing people that play Summoner don't want is an insignificant feeling and totally forgettable pet.

Unfortunately, there is no easy way to fix a thematic problem like there is with balance problems. The fact that few have an issue with ACN, but only with SMN illustrates that it is a thematic problem quite well. Consider any other job or class within any ongoing base setting, the name alone is tied very closely to the general expectations of how it will play in the future, just consider the difference in play styles the names Warrior, Berzerker, and Barbarian bring to mind. Mechanically they could be identical, however they are always thematically different. And there are people out there that pick classes just for that thematic feel.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

This whole thing is not about the Final Fantasy Summoner archetype being changed slightly, but the fact that this iteration of Summoner does not fit that archetype for many.

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Last I heard, FFXIV is a Final Fantasy game and can develop it's own archetype.

If you don't think so, what is the Summoner archetype?

Also, there is no over-arching theme(Besides creature that is "summoned" does things). Just some people say there is, when really they just have a bias towards certain Final Fantasies.


It's not a thematic problem. They are introduced in the lore as such. It wasn't a thematic problem in X, from the shift of EVERYTHING prior. Both from altering your party, to directly commanding them, to them ultimately being useless. The overall theme changed with X.

-Pet isn't insignificant feeling. Simply because people don't look at the numbers, that doesn't mean they are insignificant.
-Totally forgettable? For the lore that is established in XIV, and the fact we don't summon the actual primals, I like the designs. They are sleek, and pretty cool looking. People are saying, "Man, why can't we summon something like Garuda?" -- Well, it wouldn't make sense to summon something that looks like it when we just use an essence of power. Image can reflect power. For summoning an essence, the Egi's do a great job of getting the theme of the primals.

-If a name is tied closely to the general expectation of how it will play, why do you want it pet based? If anything, it would be burst casts where the summons make an appearance for a strong attack, and then go away. So..We would essentially be a BLM, but with "super cool Summoner visuals."

Again, you are putting your bias into your analysis.