We Need to Start Expecting Mid-Level Sprouts to Play Better

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Originally Posted by hagare

I made no assumption. You said it yourself in your post.

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I said if you are spamming cure 1 in kistis hyperboa that I think you have no idea how to play the game, not that I’d tell you in game that you suck at healing

But also how did you get to kistis hyperboa believing that cure 1 spamming is the optimal way to play

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I said if you are spamming cure 1 in kistis hyperboa that I think you have no idea how to play the game, not that I’d tell you in game that you suck at healing

But also how did you get to kistis hyperboa believing that cure 1 spamming is the optimal way to play

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Where in my quoted post did you say that?

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Originally Posted by Breakbeat

No.

Any video game player base isn't some static thing that gains knowledge after X hours of play or X number of levels.

It gets a bit old explaining infinite cycles to people, but all I can suggest is to think deeply on this: For every expert player that retires from this game, you have one that joins with zero MMO experience. Therefore the player base is constantly morphing into something different. Always.

My dude, modern basketball has been around since something like 1890. Does that mean if you head down to the park right now, all the guys on the court should be pros? Does it even mean that the 30-year-old guy that's been shooting mediocre hoops since he was nine should be any better?

No one can assume with any degree of accuracy how another, random person will perform at any chosen sport, including video games. Not at first glance. You do some research on the person, then maybe. But not at first glance.

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But the pros and the guys shooting mediocre hoops aren't being forced to play together or against each other. The woes regarding expectations in this game come largely because better players are being made to do relatively heavy lifting even if they don't want to. In XIV or in basketball, a noticeable discrepancy in skill resulting in a stomp or carrying doesn't make for a truly satisfying experience for anyone involved.

Me, staring at the Dragoon that's been spamming raw, uncomboed Chaos Thrust into Sonic Thrust for the entire duty, knowing full well if I say anything it's a 50/50 chance the party will either call me a sweaty tryhard and give me the boot, or get rid of the Goon that seemingly has never read a tooltip in their life.

https://c.tenor.com/2LRO8xWwmuAAAAAC...ck-bateman.gif

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

The problem is, if people fail too much, they complain about the game being too hard. A good example is Shinryu close to SBs launch. It wasn't long before people complained the fight was too hard and they wanted SE to make it easier. Luckily they didn't but this didn't stop people from complaining about it.

The point is, even if they were to make the game harder, people wouldn't get better to compensate, they would just complain it is too hard and this is the mentality that needs to stop.

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True. But if a fight is mandatory to the MSQ then it is wrong to make the fight very hard, i think. Because this fight could turn into a huge wall, which the players cannot overcome. And not be able to play the MSQ would make many players upset because the game would be literary over for them.

The other problem is, the player power scales almost exclusively with the itemlevel. The game mechanics are too simple and too binary. If a fight is too hard then buy a new weapon with more itemlevel and this "hard" fight turns into freeloot. I experienced it with my dragoon very often. You have too few possibilities to turn a fight from a almost sure loss to a victory. I have read, that it was different in the earlier versions of the game.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

There is also another observation I would like to make, and whilst it is purely based on what I have witnessed, I'm sure it happens across multiple DCs. If you do a fight within the first few days, people expect you to go in blind, if you wipe, no problems, you tend to discuss what went wrong and how to deal with it, we are all learning after all. However, give it a little while and people start to not listen. You can wipe, someone explain the mechanics and they ignore you. It is a weird shift in mentality which does almost seem close to, I don't want to learn the fight, I want you to carry me through it.

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This is also true. But i have also experienced it in other games very often. So it is not a FF14 exclusive behavior.


Cheers

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Originally Posted by hagare

Where in my quoted post did you say that?

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I mean that comes back to the idea of how much should you need to sugarcoat explanations of absolutely fundamental topics

If someone is spamming cure 1 there is only so many nice ways to tell them that they have no idea how to to play the game

Is my post you quoted, I never once said that I would say in game they suck at healing, at most I said they have no idea how to play the game which if you are cure 1 spamming in kistis hyperboa I stand by

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Originally Posted by Bukachu

Its possible to make game harder without changing any existing content, you just add a new, harder content.

that's it really. people who want harder content will go and do it, people who dont can do lower difficulty content.

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That doesn't help the lower skilled people get any better. You teach them to be better by providing small difficulty increases gradually through the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by AwesomeJr44

I love how most people disagreeing with me think I want people to play at a savage level, to be gamer gods, or to be excellent at the game. I said this in my OP but all I'm asking for is that people have basic skills that they 100% SHOULD have. You SHOULD be using at least one mitigation per mob pull. This is not savage level tank gameplay. This is very basic game knowledge to have.

I am not asking people to suddenly treat dungeons as savage raids, I just want people to start carrying their own weight in dungeons. This is the most basic take of all time. There should be literally no one disagreeing with me unless they are the ones that want free carries through content. This is not a hard point to understand and I even devoted half of my OP to clearing this up, but it seems like a lot of people just didn't read what I said. If you think that people should not be carrying their own weight in dungeons, you are a horrible team player and your opinion is worthless.



Go read my section of the OP on skippers. I do not care if you skip but if you do, you are responsible for getting the practice you need. If you buy a level skip on a job you've never played, and jump into Tower of Zot or Mt. Gulg as your first dungeon as that job, you are trolling.

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This isn't your game, and you don't get to set arbitrary goals for anyone, and this thread should have ended on page 1.

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

True. But if a fight is mandatory to the MSQ then it is wrong to make the fight very hard, i think. Because this fight could turn into a huge wall, which the players cannot overcome. And not be able to play the MSQ would make many players upset because the game would be literary over for them.

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That's the thing though. Shinryu wasn't hard. Every mechanic you had seen before so it was just a case of recognising it and dealing with it but that was the problem, people didn't pay attention and rather than bettering themselves a little, they blamed the game for their own shortcomings. The fact recognising certain mechanics is a useful skill meant Shinryu was a test of their fight perception rather than job skill. (There was a DPS check, but that is just the add phase, I don't think I saw anyone wipe to that).

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Originally Posted by Larirawiel

The other problem is, the player power scales almost exclusively with the itemlevel. The game mechanics are too simple and too binary. If a fight is too hard then buy a new weapon with more itemlevel and this "hard" fight turns into freeloot. I experienced it with my dragoon very often. You have too few possibilities to turn a fight from a almost sure loss to a victory. I have read, that it was different in the earlier versions of the game.

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This is one of the issues I have with some fights, or more specifically, anything that isn't a dungeon. Just looking at level 60 content, all trials, 24 man and Alexander do not have an ilevel sync, but the dungeons do? I know the sync for dungeons is to prevent people from plowing through them, but what about the trials? Everyone knows by now that Thordan is really easy, but back in the day, he did have more going on. Did you know before the knight onslaught he has 3 phases? The first is just AoEs, the second where he starts using Knights of the Round, of which he has 2 variants, he then has the Dragon eye as the last phase, where he can still use the Knights of the Round, but there is another 2 variations. He then goes through the add phase, and after that you get the last phase which literally just involves him swinging his sword wildly for pitiful damage, showing that he has severely weakened himself in an attempt to kill you. This has all been lost to a lack of ilevel sync and I would be an advocate for adding an ilevel sync into the trials/raids so that they can still hold onto some semblance of difficulty.

well i have played this game sence the release of 2.0/arr and gotten better over time i learn new tricks every year and get lots of compts if new content give me a few days to get used to it and i will do better.