Dear Healers who don't DPS

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Weaving DPS is now effortless and requires little-to-no-planning. If they do somehow overreach, all healers have a minimum of one oGCD tool to cover an "oops-the-tank-is-actually-going-to-die-in-the-next-GCD" moment. Healer DPS is definitely not the culprit here.

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No, but yet the stigma behind not DPSing enough causes terrible healers to overreach more often.

A terrible healer who wasn't pressured to DPS past his limit of skill might still keep the tank alive, but when they try to weave in DPS spells when they are not skilled or geared enough to do so, you might end up with a wipe or three on your hands.

Same goes for multi-pulling for tanks -- all tanks are pressured, sometimes coerced into multipulling when impatient ranged DPS classes will run forward and grab more mobs if they think the tank is going too slow. However, if the tank is of lesser skill or undergeared, this usually leads to disaster when more mobs are pulled than what he can actually handle.

This is why I don't like the ridiculous pressure that is placed on both behaviors -- it simply isn't NECESSARY to the run to do it. It just isn't. In fact, I would posit that SE actually designed dungeons to NOT be multi-pulled. If SE expected tanks to pull those groups, they would have made the groups link to each other naturally. If SE expected healers to maintain a set DPS, they would have made more enrages, and existing enrages tighter.

As for enrages in Savage Omega... sorry, but that's more players running it at a lower Item-Level than was intended. They're entering the instance whilst undergeared. Plain and simple. Yoshi-P said something to this effect recently, that healer DPS is absolutely NOT taken into consideration when designing content, BUT if you want to run it whilst under-geared then you may be forced to have your healers DPS to avoid the enrage timers.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

As for enrages in Savage Omega... sorry, but that's more players running it at a lower Item-Level than was intended. They're entering the instance whilst undergeared. Plain and simple. Yoshi-P said something to this effect recently, that healer DPS is absolutely NOT taken into consideration when designing content, BUT if you want to run it whilst under-geared then you may be forced to have your healers DPS to avoid the enrage timers.

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The part before this I'm skipping because my in-game experience differs; I don't perceive any harmful, pervasive pressure that healers or tanks do X or Y in random duties.

As for the Savage part, I'm not sure if you're meaning to reply to me or not, because my only recent reference to Savage and enrage timers was in the other thread and not at all in reference to healers pushing DPS to clear while under expected ilvl.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

This is why I don't like the ridiculous pressure that is placed on both behaviors -- it simply isn't NECESSARY to the run to do it. It just isn't. In fact, I would posit that SE actually designed dungeons to NOT be multi-pulled. If SE expected tanks to pull those groups, they would have made the groups link to each other naturally. If SE expected healers to maintain a set DPS, they would have made more enrages, and existing enrages tighter.

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It also isn't necessary for dps to use their proper rotation, but does that make it okay for them to spam only a single button? I've had several expert roulettes where, as a tank, I was either first or second in dps. I even once had a mnk in temple of the fist that couldn't do more than 1.4k dps on a boss or 2k on trash pulls, which is much lower than what he should've been doing in HW. I would say the biggest reason you see them called out less than healers who don't dps is because you don't need a 3rd party tool to tell when a healer is overhealing like crazy or standing idle.

Pretty sure most healers can dps, they just wont lol myself included when ever im tired or feeling lazy i just don't bother to dps. I don't mind it either way since you really don't know if that healer is being just being lazy rather than bad.

You also can't argue that healers are (requiered) to use all their kit. The only kit that's (required) for a healer to use is their healing kit. As a DPS class you are (required) to use your entire offensive kit because damage is what your role is required to do.

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Originally Posted by RulerOfPotaoes

Pretty sure most healers can dps, they just wont lol myself included when ever im tired or feeling lazy i just don't bother to dps. I don't mind it either way since you really don't know if that healer is being just being lazy rather than bad.

You also can't argue that healers are (requiered) to use all their kit. The only kit that's (required) for a healer to use is their healing kit. As a DPS class you are (required) to use your entire offensive kit because damage is what your role is required to do.

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If a tank is lazy, he will get scolded. If DPS is lazy, he will get scolded. If a healer is lazy it's fine?

If only using your healing spells, you're not using the toolkit SE gave you. Selectively only using the healing part, you're not pulling your weight. if you're new to a dungeon and you actually speak up, I'm fine with a healer not doing much/any DPS until he or she feels confortable. If you're known to the dungeon, you should always be casting something. A heal when it's required, a DPS spell when healing is not required.

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Originally Posted by Gunnie

If a tank is lazy, he will get scolded. If DPS is lazy, he will get scolded. If a healer is lazy it's fine?

If only using your healing spells, you're not using the toolkit SE gave you. Selectively only using the healing part, you're not pulling your weight. if you're new to a dungeon and you actually speak up, I'm fine with a healer not doing much/any DPS until he or she feels confortable. If you're known to the dungeon, you should always be casting something. A heal when it's required, a DPS spell when healing is not required.

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I don't think you understand the concept that healers are only required i repeate required to use their healing kit. A healer only spaming regens should be called out but not a healer using their healing kit. Healer is the only job that Can do 2 roles and only 1 of those is Required.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

This has happened more often than I would like. It shouldn't even happen once, to be quite honest.

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Obviously it should. What's the point of the game if you're meant to have no chances of losing ? It's pointless.

It's because you have to keep hitting those armies of HP bags with no interesting interaction that players are playing like idiots. Who likes fighting trashmob for 10 minutes long anyway ? That's boring as fuck, no one does. Every one was skipping them until every single dungeon was gated every damn pull. It's the fault of healer healing to less, on DPSing to less, or tanks pulling too much or not enough, its a matter of borings dungeon that you have to repeat all day long.

All those pages of people blaming every one while it would be a non-issue if only entering a dungeon wouldn't be chore to begin with.

There's no reason for a healer to literally wait for the next heal. Hell, even tossing in an Aero or a Combust helps the party out, and a Swiftcasted Gravity or Holy really doesn't take long.

Keeping your health up is our top priority though,
and DPS should only be done when there's a window. But when there is, there really isn't a reason not to.

Healer dps is now a thing thanks to dev....

A healer who does zero to no dps is a enrage no question ask

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I've been in groups with healers who let me (as a tank) get down to 10% and then scramble to get a Tetra or Benediction on me when I'm ~1 hit from death. I HATE it when I get those kinds of healers. Ugh.

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If the healer knows what they're doing (ie. doesn't take risks with unlucky crits), this is actually the most effective way to play a healer. When I'm on WHM and I'm planning to Bene (or even Tetra / Assize), I keep the tank targeted during Holy spam and wait as long as possible to use the heal to get the most out of it and to DPS for as long as possible. But again, this requires for the healer to know the tank will live through, and in the cases you've described they haven't (obviously, since you died).

I also play tank and personally appreciate healers playing effectively instead of constantly holding my hand. I also gladly allow them to make occasional mistakes and let me die while they're practicing effective healing. :)

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Originally Posted by Maeka

As for enrages in Savage Omega... sorry, but that's more players running it at a lower Item-Level than was intended. They're entering the instance whilst undergeared. Plain and simple.

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I think you've misunderstood what you've read about this. The fights aren't balanced for their item level requirement, but for higher item level than what is available for players when the fights are added to the game. So all players are forced to do the fights "undergeared" as you say, unless they wait weeks, perhaps even months before even trying them (unless that's what you're suggesting?). Right now, OS4 at least requires healer DPS from even groups with the top players in the world. If you're playing with "only" good DDs in the best gear available for them right now, you'll still need healer DPS for other floors too (OS3 at least, probably OS2 too). And if your healers aren't doing DPS in Savage, they are making their DDs and tanks work at or close to their optimal maximum performance while the healers themselves aren't working even around half of that level, which is not something many (if any) groups would be willing to accept.

I wish people would stop spreading the extremely misleading idea that healers wouldn't need to DPS in Savage, it's just so very far from truth when you actually look at the party DPS requirements and compare those to what's possible at current item level from tanks and DDs.