Wow, Wuk Lamat is really single-handedly ruining the DT story...

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Highly debatable. Without us, Kona likely won't success in bailing her out when she was kidnapped. They're likely won't be able to deal with Valigarmanda. And it's doubtful they'll be able to resolve the Mamook Ja issue as smoothly without the Scion's connection. By the end, the Scion pretty much throw the entire weight behind Wuk Lamak to make her success.

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Wuk got hard carried in every trial.

It was us who noticed the aether in the hanuhanu fields being stagnant, and Alphy's idea (I think?) about the bird boat being an arcane focus. She had no idea what was going on.

It was Mablu who dragged us around town trading stuff to afford the saddle (really, this should've been the trial, not some offscreen alpaca hunting but I digress). She would't have even gotten close to an alpaca otherwise.

It was us who noticed the bad conditions of the moblin workshops, and recommended Fonjeantaine for the trial of pots. Bonus points, we also rescued her from being kidnapped after it, despite losing the keystone.

3 trials (one of them being a 2x1 because of Bakool ja ja) involved fighting, so at least she actively participated in them, albeit with the backup of like 7 other people.

The only trial Wuk Lamat would've achieved on her own merit would be the taco one, and even then she's not even the one to cook it....Krile and the WoL did.

Honestly I would've preferred if the "Bad Candidate" (Zoraal Ja) won. Would've made things going forward more interesting as we now have a neutral-to-hostile leader to navigate around and not just a happy-sunshine one that we always agree with.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Wuk got hard carried in every trial.

The only trial Wuk Lamat would've achieved on her own merit would be the taco one, and even then she's not even the one to cook it....Krile and the WoL did.

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Even then I would argue that the rite was heavily in her favor because she got paired up with someone she got along with, instead of her ideological opposite or Bakool Ja Ja.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

Even then I would argue that the rite was heavily in her favor because she got paired up with someone she got along with, instead of her ideological opposite or Bakool Ja Ja.

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Yup, complete waste of potential to explore more into Zoraal ja or Bakool ja ja as characters, or at least set up more tension between them. Instead, they played it safe going with Koana, in a rite that somewhat contradicts the previous statement they had no time limit, and could do the rites in any order, yet that one not only needed all claimants present (making the whole Valigarmanda incident narratively pointless, something Bakool ja ja himself pointed out...), only one team would get a keystone... like, did Hunmu Rruk not get the memo? or was that just a cheap way to take out "the bad guys" from the competition? now that I think about it, Zoraal ja being officially disqualified in the Mamook rite is redundant since he and Bakool ja ja already can't get all 7 keystones unless they steal one from Wuk Lamat or Koana, something Gulool ja ja would likely not condone.

I know the point of the rites wasn't to 'win' it but to shape the next dawnservant into a good ruler, but the more I think about it the more messy the whole arc feels.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

Yup, complete waste of potential to explore more into Zoraal ja or Bakool ja ja as characters, or at least set up more tension between them. Instead, they played it safe going with Koana, in a rite that somewhat contradicts the previous statement they had no time limit, and could do the rites in any order, yet that one not only needed all claimants present (making the whole Valigarmanda incident narratively pointless, something Bakool ja ja himself pointed out...), only one team would get a keystone... like, did Hunmu Rruk not get the memo? or was that just a cheap way to take out "the bad guys" from the competition? now that I think about it, Zoraal ja being officially disqualified in the Mamook rite is redundant since he and Bakool ja ja already can't get all 7 keystones unless they steal one from Wuk Lamat or Koana, something Gulool ja ja would likely not condone.

I know the point of the rites wasn't to 'win' it but to shape the next dawnservant into a good ruler, but the more I think about it the more messy the whole arc feels.

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One other thing to note is the failure rate of this Rite in particular. In the previous ones (Pelupelu, HanuHanu & Moblins), you do not have a hard cap failure rate. You seem to be able to try and try again (you know, learn from your mistakes and grow) hence why a time limit being absent makes sense. But with Yak Tel's in particular it just throws everything out the window because it's not about growth, but about getting it right the first time. It's essentially a Personality Test, with a heavily biased judge, where your failure is absolute and you cannot try again. What kind of growth is there to be had here? If you do not mesh well with this Rite (which is absolute bullshit in my opinion), you are disqualified without retrial and are thus out of the race for good. Not to mention that this is a team event, and everyone having done group projects at school knows how awful these are for judging individual skills!

Like you said, this cooking trial seemed to be for removing any "threats" Wuk had in the Rites by artificially propping her up with this sham of a test. This zone in particular is where the immersion got 100% broken for me, and it's the sole reason why.

So for the sake of not repeating what's already been said, as all complaints about Wuk Lamat I have have been said elsewhere and far better. something has been bugging me about Turial and Dawntrail for a and I've only recently put my finger on it.
Turial doesn't feel connected to the wider world. it exists as an island both in a literal sense and a story sense. and we are viewing it through the lenses of someone whos native to it but we ourselves are unable to experience it.

Example: For all 20 people who have done blue mage storyline (Hi it me, I'm one of them) a big thing is talking about how Blue Magic comes from the new world, and how its used by the northern tribes...well we get there, and not a single sighting of any hint of blue magic.

This sounds petty but think about how well 14 in the past has teased locations through jobs and clothing and given hints of lore before we even reach those places. Monk and Ninja talked about their origins in Ala Migho and Doma respectivly and have enemies, npcs, and even dungeons dedicated to them. Dancers and the wider Thavnair clothing line were in the game well before endwalker, same goes with gunbreaker and bozjan, Astrologian and Old Sharlaya.

So I'm being picky about jobs why does this matter? even if its added later in a post update the whole expansion has a feeling of being strictly isolated, which is strange because Shadowbringers felt more close to home and that's in a different world. this is exacerbated by the fact were not really exploring Turial, were walking through it while Wuk talks. Even in cases like SB with lyse Doma was still fun to explore and learn about because it provided a fresh new culture for us to directly experience and help free. But all of the conflicts from DT exists because of a hurricane, and an inconstant bad guy wanting to conquer everything and threating erozea when he couldn't get past the cowboys.

Because Turial is experinced through Wuk Lamat and the people aren't in need of adventurers nor is there a NEED for adventure itself I find myself hard to care about the people, the plights, or the weirdly inconsonant naming convention locations. Especially the northern part where we finally get a break were not allowed to learn about the northern people, maybe why Cerlium mining has boomed there, or conflicts it creates with the various tribes, or how blue magic effected the history of the land, or the diseases that the blue mage questline mentioned.

No we gotta focus on the handmaid bracelet and learn more about Wuk Lamat before she dies in the next area. feel sad guys!

It just feels like its a land from a completely different game, at no point have I cared about the people or the cultures because the game didn't let me care or learn.

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Originally Posted by Magma442

Example: For all 20 people who have done blue mage storyline (Hi it me, I'm one of them) a big thing is talking about how Blue Magic comes from the new world, and how its used by the northern tribes...well we get there, and not a single sighting of any hint of blue magic.

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Do the Wachumequiqui Delivery quest for FSH.

Apparently Krile can rez. With zero heals on poochie, she made it through the dead baby dungeon to the last boss without really breaking a sweat, even with me pulling in extras. Last boss killed her eventually after I let Allisae cark it, but not too long after this they both came magically back to life.

https://i.gyazo.com/150cd7c7c394ba02...0a2ed68b55.png

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Originally Posted by Papayatar

Do the Wachumequiqui Delivery quest for FSH.

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and that's the only place in all of Dawntrail that will reference them, which is disappointing to say the least considering the origin of BLU magic is something I was hyped for.

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Originally Posted by Raven2014

Highly debatable. Without us, Kona likely won't success in bailing her out when she was kidnapped. They're likely won't be able to deal with Valigarmanda. And it's doubtful they'll be able to resolve the Mamook Ja issue as smoothly without the Scion's connection. By the end, the Scion pretty much throw the entire weight behind Wuk Lamak to make her success.

Even if you want to argue that it wasn't entirely necessary and Wuk would still make it to the finishing line through a bunch of convenience coincident, the spirit of the narrative is still troublesome. Remember that in the beginning we were shown in no uncertain term that Wuk had almost zero popular support while her brothers were extremely popular. Yet by the half-way mark after just a few limited interactions, we already decided Wuk is the best person to rule simply because she align with our view of the world order, while also declared (by Thranced) that Zoraal Ja can not be allowed to win no matter what despite him being overwhelmingly more popular among his people ... that's just incredibly hubris and out of character for the Scion to say the very least.

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And like I said, the most jarring part of this is the fact it happens right after the 7.0 declaration when the Scion wanted to limited their influence, yet DT immediately threw us into the other extreme of the spectrum, that's why it's a consistency problem.

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I completely agree with you about the consistancy problem. I found it awfully convinient that the same people in the capital who treated Lamat like she stank and had fleas suddenly loved her after we returned from the hinterlands of the empire. I guess my argument is that the writers wanted Lamat to win and were going to make that happen, no matter the cost to the narrative. At the very least, I was given one chance to voice my thoughts to Gulool Ja Ja and I said Lamat wasn't ready. If asked a second time when it was over, I would have said the same thing. From an ethical standpoint, all my character can do is throw up her hands and say, "I told you guys."

The easy narrative fix would have been Gulool Ja Ja hiring the Scions as advisors (which, remember, was their original role), and more explicitly saying that the succession rite is a more of test than an actual contest for the throne. There is plenty of historical precedent for similar situations, where newer, poorer, nations would hire Europeans set up schools, train up their militaries, direct manufacturing development--they needed experience, and there were people willing to provide it.

Oh, and Koana might have rescued Lamat if he had left his rubber dueling bullets at home and had a shoulder stock on his gun so he could properly aim the damn thing.

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Originally Posted by Kennar

The easy narrative fix would have been Gulool Ja Ja hiring the Scions as advisors (which, remember, was their original role), and more explicitly saying that the succession rite is a more of test than an actual contest for the throne. There is plenty of historical precedent for similar situations, where newer, poorer, nations would hire Europeans set up schools, train up their militaries, direct manufacturing development--they needed experience, and there were people willing to provide it.

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You're not wrong, but you know damn well the "cultural consultants" wouldn't have allowed that because "muh colonialism". Which is why I think all of Tulilloyal seems so saccharine. There's very little conflict in such a "diverse" empire. Guess what, that rarely happens in real life, an even narratively in XIV, it doesn't happen. Look at all the conflict in Eorzea, and they have a common enemy to rally against. What's funny is Tulilloyal would've been better served with a little more realism.

Initially, Gulool Ja Ja should've conquered the continent from a combination of talk-no-jutsu and pure military force. Now that the Head of Reason is out of commission (he should've actually just been sleeping a lot, that would've been more subversive than him being dead. I called it from the moment I saw him), and Gulool Ja Ja advanced age, old inter-tribal strifes and differences are bubbling back up. He's now having a hard time keeping a lid on everything. Gulool Ja Ja sees the writing on the wall and uses that as the impetus for the rite of succession; trying to pass on the throne to the new age who could keep all the disparate groups together. But of course, we can't have strife in our Disney story.