The latter fell directly under the premise that DRK's burst phase is slightly bloated and that current Blood Weapon is a problem. If we can agree to intersecting premises on the issue, would not concrete suggestions how to address them be the next step?Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi
Arguing, moreover, is how these things get hammered out. Some forms or flavor of argument are more efficient/productive than others, but it's not as if arguing is opposed to being constructive.
This seems... fine. I just have to ask again: Do we want to stick a self-heal behind a shield that may fully nullify that damage, making the Edge possibly overheal (if we need to get it out quickly for purposes of burst)? (Meanwhile, obligatory percentile mitigation makes it harder to pop TBN; if you wish to go that route, the more generally useful would be to retain TBN's eHP under barrier but have the mitigation effect extend beyond the barrier, such as by giving it a 20% HP shield and a 25 -> 15% mitigation over the first 4 and next 4 seconds, respectively.)Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi
Keep in mind that there is a limit to our self-healing deficit. Putting a buff of X self-healing (per minute and per burst) in one place means that much less elsewhere. This is cool, but is it likely to be more fun than just, say, a heal on Bloodspiller?
My $0.02. Yeah, a DA-based self-heal is probably a bit more fun than a Bloodspiller heal, but it's that much harder to guarantee, has that much less available burst, and also would drop an opportunity to finally make Bloodspiller feel more interesting. Put simply, I suspect DA-based self-healing would be a bit better for the function itself, but faintly worse for the kit.
Dark Knight Megathread
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03-13-2022, 05:01 AMShurrikhan
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03-13-2022, 06:06 AMItsUrBoiMy reasoning for putting Dark Arts grant the next Edge/Flood of Shadow a heal of potency equal to damage dealt by said ability is simply because that would allow the job to work in dungeons a bit better, in raids if TBN breaks, you will probably lose a significant amount of HP - because TBN broke, ending up on >95% health after a tank buster is unlikely and then it wouldn't matter that much - sure , but nothing really would matter when you are that high on health already, and because with this you can actually use TBN on CD for sustain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Or as I have posted before, change Dark Mind into a instant heal of some potency ( ex: 700 potency, lower than Aurora, Equilibrium, Clemency ) which consumes some Dark Side duration, and if TBN breaks you can use it for free. To facilitate this the Dark Side timer could be increased to 120 seconds, since you use x4 or x5 edges in the opener, and every 2 minutes anyway. -
03-13-2022, 07:00 PMArchwizard... is it? I figure PLD or GNB has a better shot at that position than DRK; hell, WAR had the best shot with old RI. I mean yeah, DRK has extremely weak self-healing at the time being, but right now it feels like it burns through its mitigation tools faster than other tanks in dungeons -- between its on-demand breaking after a fixed amount of damage, Dark Mind/Missionary being useless a majority of the time, Oblation being so weak it needs to be stacked with other skills to have a palpable value...Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi
The only elements of DRK's kit that would make me think of it as the "mitigation tank" are that you need to press more buttons to accomplish the same effect other jobs can do with just one, and that it only has a 200p/target safety heal.
Admittedly, this would actually be an elegant way to cover healing with TBN (to bring it up to par with the upgrades to other tanking on-demands) without making it overpowered. Just bank a heal before your next use.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi
Though I also feel that, at this juncture, we should avoid setting our expectations too high. 6.1's changes are unannounced but the devs probably know exactly how they plan to proceed from here, so we're spit-balling for each other here. We can't provide feedback for something we don't know about, after all. -
03-14-2022, 06:48 AMMarxam
Probably the easiest "fix" they can do to address the self heals of DRK, is to put a heal on Delirium for each BS/Quietus used. However imo, they just need to fix TBN to be more accessible and not tied to your dps. A change I would do is:
-TBN put to 2 charges (25 sec recast)
-Cost no MP
-Duration increased to 10 seconds (still 25% HP shield)
-If TBN breaks recast of TBN is shortened by 5 seconds
With this change, TBN becomes easier to use, rewards you with more TBN's for using it, pairs well with the 2 charges of oblation, increased utility and not tied to your DPS. Since TBN is up more often that means you will most likely be taking less damage resulting in reduced need for self heal actions but giving Delirium a heal for using BS/Quietus would help as well. Though they need to address how antiquated TBN is and how unrewarding it feels to use it.
Living Dead on the other hand... -
03-14-2022, 03:22 PMItsUrBoiThe problem is that even if its not tied to your damage resource, there still are problems. Imagine you are doing your burst properly and you need to mitigate a tank buster in Savage. You will have to press 3 or even 4 additional buttons ( 2 double weaves ), where in the burst do you put them to not miss out on damage? You don't that's the problem, all other tanks are not forced to double weave for 6 gcds straight, and at worst they have to weave 1 damage off gcd like GNB.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
Besides this doesn't solve DRK lacking any self heals, any amount of shielding will never outright mean you can have 0 healing in your kit. There will be moments when you will run out of shields and you will need healing. I am not saying you should have GNB,PLD or WAR level of healing, but some is needed on a tank, as some is needed for example on a melee DPS.
Also the reason why it wouldn't be good for them to put healing on delirium or on Bloodspiller is because that will always happen at a fixed moment during the fight. It works as somewhat rotational healing you get per minute. That's why it was put on PLD Holly Spirit - PLD had no healing on its Goring Blade combo or on its Royal Authority combo. DRK has that, but it doesn't have Clemency, Aurora or Equilibrium. That's what it needs.
I agree with TBN not being tied to damage, but its CD shouldn't really be reduced it one breaks ( it'd become very overpowered at 10 seconds ), and while having 2 stacks is interesting, I'd rather have Oblation's damage reduction within it. -
03-14-2022, 08:40 PMMarxam
Double weaving is job design problem and not a cd design problem. You have a job that needs to feel "busy" but only has one rotation so you give it tons of ogcds to fluff it up. It's one of the reasons why DRK is terribly designed. Imo no tank should be double weaving because you want to encourage using defensive cds in between gcds. A lot of DRK's ogcds are just there for damage and nothing more.
My suggestion for Delirium heals is more for dungeon pulls than savage content. WAR's BW is strong in dungeons but in savage the heals at best can negate 2-3 autos if it crits (which is roughly the same as TBN). A bloodspiller heals aren't that much in savage and its essentially the same as AD being tied to a 1 min cd. It's more of an equalizer for casual players who do dungeons and use quietus.
TBN being 10 sec duration is not op because the recast timer is 25 secs and in most cases that shield pops in the first 5 secs. Making the duration longer just increases the odds of it actually breaking and ensuring you get that proc. TBN is a shield and not compared to flat mitigation like rampart or shadow wall. Once that shield is gone you have 0 mitigation and shields by their design are only meant for high burst damage. Just because the duration is 10 seconds doesn't mean you have 10 secs of 0 damage and most times TBN is only up for < 5 secs currently.
TBN procing Oblation imo is like enhanced unmend. Technically a positive effect but so worthless its not even worth mentioning. TBN procing more TBN is much better because a free 25% HP shield is always good to have. No one is gonna complain for having more shields and the idea is you want to pair TBN with other cds. TBN + SW/DM/Oblation is generally what you would want and it matches the current DRK design. I still think TBN is a good skill but in comparison to the others it falls short by its antiquated design. TBN should feel good to use but atm I just feel relieved when it procs and annoyed when it doesn't. The other tanks don't have this issue. -
03-15-2022, 05:07 AMItsUrBoiThat's not wrong but neither accurate. In savage for example you will use Bloodwhetting to mitigate damage from a tank buster OR when you need HP because you are low. The healing itself is surely 2-3 boss auto attacks, but you will get yourself to almost full HP and get 100% use of it while boss AAs will be dealt with by regens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marxam
Meanwhile TBN cannot be used so freely at all - you have to keep your MP as high as possible for raid buff windows without over capping it either. If you use TBN too much you will have lower MP inside the raid buff windows and therefore less damage. So you cannot take advantage of the low 15 seconds CD that well - its not such a big issue if you don't have a ninja in your party since you have more time to generate resources.
I will say it again:
-> Pressing 3 or even 4 buttons on a tank that has to double weave for 6 gcds straight to not lose damage is not good. TBN should have Oblation built into it, it shouldn't be tied to MP.
-> Dark Mind could become a generic damage reduction or changed to offer some on demand healing. ( Ex of other on demand healing: Equilibrium, Clemency, Aurora )
-> Current Dark Arts could just grant the next Edge or Flood a healing over time or instant heal effect which is used after you mitigated damage. ( Similar examples: Knight's Benediction, Bloodwhetting, Catharsis of Corundum )
-> Living Dead could see adjustments like when healed to full, you don't lose the invulnerability, a slightly longer duration or a rework.
Kind suggestion for the job:
->The blood gauge is literally warrior's beast gauge. Remove it and try something with the Darkside buff granted by Edge or Flood. Anything would be cool - playing with the duration of the buff, converting seconds of the buff into something.
->Delirium can be a combo, or something that upgrades your actions to different ones, it doesn't have to be Warrior's Inner Release. Please. Blood weapon is alright since its purpose is resource generation but when the major offensive cooldown is a x3 bloodspiller... with no finisher and no unique feeling to it - that feels bad. -
03-17-2022, 11:49 AMArcalithe
I mostly play PLD, and have recently started working my DRK's way up to 90 through Endwalker. I don't know about specific suggestions, but all of the dungeon situations that my PLD can handle with ease are a true struggle on my DRK. I'm sure most of it will come with getting re-used to the class since I haven't played it since I got it to 80 in ShB, but it still feels like, even with my pretty extensive tanking background in other MMOs and this game, I just don't have the defensive numbers to comfortably make big pulls, unlike with my WAR and PLD.
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03-17-2022, 09:56 PMDaneloThe dev team balances tanks across a range of content. I understand this can be difficult and will be become more so as more levels are introduced to the game. I am having a difficult time, however, understanding why all tanks don’t operate the exact same in milk toast content such as leveling dungeons. I understand making the difference black and white (higher dmg, higher healing, etc) when it comes to content that has a savage or extreme mode on the way but for a leveling dungeon I don’t. I could understand this if there was a high tier dungeon but, as there isn’t, I do not. Specifically, this makes DRK feel weak in a way that the other tanks suffer bcs of kit differences. It could be fixed very easily by making AD a gcd for example. Gut it for single target akin to what it was like in SB - maybe not that strong. I’m hopeful this is something that will be addressed for DRK this upcoming patch cycle and all jobs moving into future expansions. Like everyone else, not holding my breath for my wishlist.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcalithe
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03-17-2022, 11:31 PMbaklava151I'm on board with this. Any changes to Delirium would probably have the biggest effect on its overall gameplay, and honestly I don't think I'd miss any of the Blood Gauge attacks, Living Shadow especially. I hate that they doubled-down on it being an IR clone for EW, I would have liked if they at least tried to do something different with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi