Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

My brother (DRK) and I (WHM) went into A2 DF.

The other healer was awful. If she wasn't busy spamming her Eye for an Eye macro on my brother every 30 seconds, she was spamming Aero 3 on single mobs. Except when she was running around in a circle like a crack addict.

No, really.

The MNK gets into the gobwalker, and proceeds to run around in circles like a crack addict. Really. 3 bombs blow up in the middle of the group.

People start dying. So the other healer starts rezzing them, I'm hitting them with heals as soon as they're up. While healing the ones who didn't die. And the tanks.

Both of them.

We wind up wiping because she's too busy running around in circles, letting people die, which means the Jagd Dolls aren't dying.

Then she has a dramatic hissyfit about how I need to heal my brother. Or anyone else. Or help rez. Or do something.

Sister, how do you expect me to do anything if I'm busy healing the whole group, and am running at ~200 MP while you're sitting on over 10k MP? Except when you dipped to 8k MP because you hit Aero 3 on the single mob 3 times...

^ These are the best kind of healers to pair up with

Oh I have a couple good ones.

Running roulette on my alt, I got Tam Tara and a bard who seemed to think their job was tank. They kept running ahead and face pulling. If I had been an actual sprout tank that might have flustered me, but I kept hate just fine. On that same run, the sprout healer stayed in Cleric Stance the whole run, and all they did was cure spam me. I might have tried to give both of them corrective feedback if I hadn't had a cat on my lap, therefore keyboard out of reach. But maybe staying shut up was what got me three comms...

Later that day, still on my alt, got a white mage for Toto-rok who seemed to think their job was to jump around in between throwing me an occasional cure, and a bard who ignored my marks in favor of the OTHER target, making me glad I'd spent the afternoon getting Provoke to cross class onto my baby marauder. Again, didn't say anything because cat on lap. I was in party with my girlfriend and one of those people didn't comm - probably the sprout bard. Oh, and she was wearing a DoM cowl.

Special recognition goes to the off tank who came into A2 normal with a 170 wep and declared he'd main tank, even after the trash packs where I'd held virtually all of the hate. I asked if he'd take south adds. According to our dps after two wipes, he never did - healers and dps were getting all the hate. It had been a while since I'd done A2 normal instead of A2S so I was slightly out of sync with some of the waves but still picking up all the mobs I could. But I can't hold them all...sadly that one was vote abandon. On A2 normal. Because the other tank couldn't pick up his mobs. :/

Shout out to the healer who asked me and the other tank from a different A2 to put on more fending because me dying was "his fault" and he was "oom because he had to heal us so much." Buddy, you don't know what you're talking about. GG.

Last night I was running Keeper of the Lake for the first time in a thousand years, because that's where my character suddenly decided he should go to give his new Relic weapon flavor, I guess.

I join a party with a WAR, a NIN, and a SMN, fully expecting the tank to be as hocked up on sugarcane and nose candy as the two previous tanks I was with. Not this time! This time it was the SMN. The tank had to take a few moments to wiki the bosses, because, y'know, he probably hadn't been there in a thousand years either.

Every time the tank had to stop and read up on a boss, the SMN entered the boss zone and started playing patty-cake with the boss. He was clearly in a hurry to get his Relic charged up. What the hell else could've been his deal? I was far, far, far too compassionate a person to let the SMN die when I should have... then again, I only went in and started healing because the tank kept running to the SMN's rescue.

I fully expected the tank to really fly into the SMN for constantly running ahead and pulling--especially at Midgardsormr, when the tank actually was starting to explain what we had to do, because... y'know, how many of us actually went back to enjoy that Gods-awfully long fight after managing it the first time? We ended up wiping once due to our ignorance and SMN's haste.

I did smile a little, though, when the SMN died on our second attempt at Midgardsormr. If he weren't such a vital part of DPS, I'd have left him down, the little rascal.

Just returned from the weirdest cutter's cry run I ever had. It was a low level roulette run on my paladin, I got a WHM, a BLM and a dragoon. During the second trash pack the dragoon was suddenly out of range (their name in the party list was grey), then they somehow returned before leaving the duty. No clue what happened, maybe bad connection?
A ninja replaced the dragoon, two trash packs later they disconnected and we kicked them after five minutes of waiting for them. The third DPS we got was another dragoon who played well, unfortunately they left for no clear reason after the second boss - the BLM was one of those few ones actually knowing their rotation, the WHM didn't dps but did their actual job very fine, and I don't think I was that bad either, so... no clue. Then we got a bard who didn't sing Foe's Requiem but that's the only thing I could complain about regarding them.
During the chimera fight, the BLM complained about laggs they seemed to have, they didn't move for neither the AOEs nor this sphere add thingie. They died and the WHM never tried to raise them (I can't say why, either they considered a lagging BLM dead flesh or it was the fact they didn't have Swiftcast). The WHM stood in every single dragon voice even after I told them to come closer, and they somehow didn't know how Esuna works as I had to tell them to use it to get rid of the paralyze debuff they always got. At least the bard knew what to do, they moved according to the AOEs and even sang a Mage's Ballad for the WHM without anyone telling them to do so. So, we somehow manage to kill the chimera in the first try, it was kinda exhausting but we did it ^^

Neverreap. I'm there as Monk.

The run goes smoothly for the most part, it's almost time for Maintenance but I felt confident we could get through with time to spare based on our run speed.

Hah, right.

It's about 12-15 minutes until maintenance, we reach the last boss. As smooth as the run has been, the tank takes this opportune moment to completely go derp. He seemingly afks during the boss fight, no mention of anything, so I figure he would be back at the comp to do his tank thing. Thirty seconds later, he loses aggro to me, I look and he's smacking the Mist Mob instead of focusing on the boss. -Sigh- He seemingly goes idle again. The Healer is doing an amazing job keeping this guy alive as well as the party - I guess she figured he would come to his senses. As one would expect, he gets blown off and dies. There's about ten minutes on the shot clock at this point before the servers are scheduled to go down. I've only just started endgame grinding so my equips weren't the absolute best, and the Mage had even lesser equipment than I did, but I threw up Fists of the Earth and started tanking that thing. It was slow and agonizing because of those stupid tornados, the Mage used a LB to take out the gales towards the end and I almost died at one point, but Mega Potion (lol I keep them on hand for emergencies) and Mantra keeps me alive. We get another LB and I use it this time, boss goes down.

Three minutes to spare. I get Commendations from both BLM and AST. The Warrior lays there dead.

A long while back in Neverreap, I was a WHM paired up with a PLD, SMN, and MNK. Run went very smoothly for the most part, up until the paladin had a brain fart after the first gale mechanic and got blown off the edge.

He was profusely apologizing, assuming we'd wipe afterwards. I was like 'NOPE' knowing aggro would shift to me, proceeded to Divine Seal and slap on all the heal over time effects I could place on myself, and laughed at how the giant sky serpent couldn't eat the itty bitty healer no matter how hard it tried. :3

(At the time, I was surprised that worked though. Even if I had to swiftcast Medica 2 and use Tetraglammation/Benediction a couple times.)

Getting white mages that spam Medica II in dungeons always confuses me... and if it had only happened once I would ignore it, but I had Medica II+Regen on me in normal pulls more than one time. I always instantly check the party list to see if I f*ucked up and everyone is getting eaten without me noticing, or if I'm taking MASSIVE damage and the healer needs two regens on me... but that is never the case. It's a mystery to me. I am not the best WHM there is, maybe there is a trick or something I don't know about... or I'm getting trolled.

I was on my ninja in titan ex

Healers proceed to stand only slightly away from titan when gaoled killing dps and themselves in the process.

This happens 3 runs in a row, I tell them that they should move further away and give them a waymark as a reference (at one point they ran too far and got stuck in the part of the arena that titan destroys, so I felt like one was needed).

They say that they have to stay closer to titan to cast medica 2 and their healing spells to protect ppl from bombs (not the case). I tell them that I healed this fight before so I know what I am saying.

Eventually they listen but then a tank dies and as run is in dissaray now the healers go back to their bad habit of staying close when gaoled, dooming the run even further. I ask them to not do that and they take it as me blaming the derp of the tank on them and start saying things like 'everyone always blames healers'. I tell them that mechanics are mechanics and they shouldn't pass on them when things are going south.

At this point they remove the waymark out of spite but surprisingly still run to the right spot when gaoled so things kind of are going but morale is already low and as wipe happens abandon passes.

Ohh duty finder~

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Originally Posted by Uhm

Getting white mages that spam Medica II in dungeons always confuses me... and if it had only happened once I would ignore it, but I had Medica II+Regen on me in normal pulls more than one time. I always instantly check the party list to see if I f*ucked up and everyone is getting eaten without me noticing, or if I'm taking MASSIVE damage and the healer needs two regens on me... but that is never the case. It's a mystery to me. I am not the best WHM there is, maybe there is a trick or something I don't know about... or I'm getting trolled.

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Depending on the situation, i definately do this. All so I can stay in dps stance longer. Med II up on bosses and mobs I know do AOE damage, Regen on tank, sometimes Asylum, Cleric-swift-holy-aero III-Assiez-holy-...-holy-cleric-tetra tank. (Swap stone III for holy and toss in aero/aero II for single target.)
Of course, I dont cast it at the end of a pack like some I've run into recently.

Trial roulette just now.

We got Ramuh HM. I look over party composition and I notice there's a Summoner. So being the idiot I am, I used Foe Requiem and it aggro'd Ramuh to us immediately.

I'm an idiot.

Duty Roulette: Level 50 hate me too much.

Today, first time, Snowcloak: Generally gives me this dungeon. But I am very bad against the last boss (always die 3 or 4x there) and today I simply said for party wait better dps and I ate the penalty of 30 minutes.

Second time, Pharos Sirius: Tank catches all the first room and party wipe. Tank and healer quit. Then I also quit and catch more penalty.

I hope have luck in the third attempt...

Anyway, is a little hard avoid aoe of some boss when playing with 8 fps (onboard video).

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Trial roulette just now.

We got Ramuh HM. I look over party composition and I notice there's a Summoner. So being the idiot I am, I used Foe Requiem and it aggro'd Ramuh to us immediately.

I'm an idiot.

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Same story happened to me in A1 on Faust :o

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Trial roulette just now.

We got Ramuh HM. I look over party composition and I notice there's a Summoner. So being the idiot I am, I used Foe Requiem and it aggro'd Ramuh to us immediately.

I'm an idiot.

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This is why we continually tell the old bard from my static that his character's name should be Lagolas Facepuller.

He's facepulled pretty much every raid and dungeon boss with either Foe Requiem or a bard autoattack. xD

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Originally Posted by Ashkendor

This is why we continually tell the old bard from my static that his character's name should be Lagolas Facepuller.

He's facepulled pretty much every raid and dungeon boss with either Foe Requiem or a bard autoattack. xD

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#bardlyfe

I've pulled S-ranks by accident because I was trying to /ftarget them while waiting for the pull.
It's pretty fun.........wait no

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Originally Posted by Zefiris

Anyway, is a little hard avoid aoe of some boss when playing with 8 fps (onboard video).

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Not exactly sure what you're doing since I get about the same in dungeons for FPS and the only battle it really, truly screws me over in is Titan. (those WotL tho)

Jumped into a already inprogress dungeon. We pretty much clear it up to the last boss without a tank. *claps" for two bards. Finally get a tank who prceeds to face tank everything.....
I will take my luck with the bards....

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

#bardlyfe

Not exactly sure what you're doing since I get about the same in dungeons for FPS and the only battle it really, truly screws me over in is Titan. (those WotL tho)

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It's the on-board video card. When I started playing I was using an Intel HD 4600 video processor (not GPU since it's built into the CPU). I pulled 12 FPS for most content, and 6 FPS for heavy content (looking at you Fates). Titan NM was the bane to my existence until I was able to upgrade.

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

Not exactly sure what you're doing since I get about the same in dungeons for FPS and the only battle it really, truly screws me over in is Titan. (those WotL tho)

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Well, I am noob bard and with noob video (from Core i7 2600) :D

Anyway, now I finished roulette with Sastasha HM. And now going do low roulette with Sch. Only this week I got money to buy expansion. Long way for Lv60. But I only will do main story 51-60 when I can buy video card. Perhaps in february :)

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Originally Posted by Zefiris

Duty Roulette: Level 50 hate me too much.

Today, first time, Snowcloak: Generally gives me this dungeon. But I am very bad against the last boss (always die 3 or 4x there) and today I simply said for party wait better dps and I ate the penalty of 30 minutes.

Second time, Pharos Sirius: Tank catches all the first room and party wipe. Tank and healer quit. Then I also quit and catch more penalty.

I hope have luck in the third attempt...

Anyway, is a little hard avoid aoe of some boss when playing with 8 fps (onboard video).

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You have all of my sympathy. T_T I somehow managed to get all the way to 60 with 7-8 fps on everything, but man did I feel awful at times for how hard aoes were to dodge. >_>

Welllll

I just "ran" the Castrum on my alt (I know, slow) and about five minutes in I had to get up to help with something. I figured "oh I'll be gone for like two minutes".
NOPE
I had to leave and I couldn't return for a while :( I figured "oh they'll just kick me" or "the AFK timer will boot me".

But when I return, I'm outside the Castrum....with the quest completed! Checked my log... only one person mentioned me gone.

Thanks, Aether DC :D for not kicking me even though you totally could've. Shame on me for not realizing I had to leave for longer than I wanted to though, or I would've dropped out (or withdrew from the queue before).

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Originally Posted by Whiteroom

Depending on the situation, i definately do this. All so I can stay in dps stance longer. Med II up on bosses and mobs I know do AOE damage, Regen on tank, sometimes Asylum, Cleric-swift-holy-aero III-Assiez-holy-...-holy-cleric-tetra tank. (Swap stone III for holy and toss in aero/aero II for single target.)
Of course, I dont cast it at the end of a pack like some I've run into recently.

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Yeah, I get it for doing more DPS, but I had one who kept it up throughout the whole Aetherochemical Research Facility (the one with the node and the constantly spawning mobs). I had to click of the Medica II before every pull just to realize, oh, I still have regen on me... and there go all the mobs except the one I tamahawked. After a while I just left regen on and went with it, as soon as i clicked it of it was immediatly on me again anyways, espetially right before pulls. The White Mage DID put out damage though.

Did a Pharo Sirius (Hard) run, told the group brb cus I needed a drink and when I got back the tank ditched. Like seriously, ain't anyone got patients anymore?

Did a EX roulette just now as WHM, ended up going into an in-progress Arboretum with a BLM and a NIN, with no tank present. They were one mob pull away from the first boss. I asked them what happened, and apparently the previous healer and their tank ditched them because they were undergeared and didn't play a certain way. I was like 'okay whatever I'll double as tank :D' and ran in.

We actually got through that first pull without much trouble, but the first boss worried me a bit because I didn't know if I was gonna get cast interrupted and nuked by its single target ability. So the NIN ran in, and the three of us spent the entire fight trading aggro off of each other. Apparently Rose Garden couldn't interrupt my cures when directly attacking me anyway, and I would have preferred to tank 100% of the time since I had the highest HP and probably the highest defenses, but low MP and Shroud of Saints are a thing. D:

Killed the morbol after a huge struggle, and no tank still came to save us. We ended up going all the way to breaking the first honeycomb wall before a tank showed up. Rest of the run went very smoothly.

I was running 5 dungeons on my astrologian yesterday: first, four dungeons for the relic (Qarn, KotL, WP, AK), then Fractal via 60 roulette. I healed 2 warriors and 3 paladins through these runs and I had to remind every single one of them of their respective tank stance...

Later, I was running Stone Vigil NM on my paladin with a scholar who always stood either right behind me and got cleaved or so far away that they pulled those patroulling dragons, never gave me Adloquium, healed in Cleric Stance and dpsed without it, and a bard spamming Quick Knock on single enemies.

Then in A1 I was blamed for not taking any adds. In fact I was the only one actually dealing with them ._.

Ended up getting shoved into The Aery last night, dunno what I was thinking really, was late night and for some odd reason the 8k gil bonus spoke to me haha. So I jump in expecting low level but instead am greeted with Aery. I currently am only ilv119 but surprisingly it goes well for me never having tanked this dungeon before. What gets me is after the 2nd boss, still no tank gear (as I am running with Demon and Ironworks gear and the 51 sword drop from Dusk) so I mention about it as a joke i've yet to get anything from any dungeon despite running them a few times and prices were a bit nuts to buy HQ (tho normal is a negative).

The funny part is they all look at me and instead of the insults and stuff I expect I hear that I am tanking a lot better than the higher geared people they get in the dungeon. So it was certainly something that made me feel better about my tank skills. Then again I also never turned grit off except for bosses (but not without shadow wall up) and was back on as soon as MP was max or blood sword was out.

This was back when Alexander released;

I was running them on AST just to see how they looked. I wasn't expecting one shot clears - or everyone to have watched videos like I did because I just wanted an idea before I went in to the fray. I was expecting people to have questions, or to mess up but at least listen to me/another person who had already cleared it when we told them how to do it.

What I didn't expect were two tanks who had queued together to demand people not spoil things for them and tell them how the mechanics worked. They wanted to figure it out themselves. They wanted the six other people with them to wipe again and again while hoping they figured out why we wiped (not likely since their entire screen would probably be full of boss crotch.)

If you want to slam your head against the wall, more power to you. But don't expect the people in the duty finder are going to be happy and stay. That's what PARTY FINDER is for.

Just had a SCH in A4 telling people (new people) the opposite way to do things. Was a terrible healer, claimed things like the adds instakill the healers. He stacked with the other healer for judgement nisi and blamed everyone else, claiming we were trolls. His exact words for the nisi wipe he caused were "we were stacked! There is nothing I could do about it!" To which we said "you dont stack", "nothing I could do". He got reported by at least two people.

The in game name was familiar, he might be a regular poster here.

I recently started tanking. It seems that I keep running across healers who refuse to cast protect at the start of either a dungeon or a guild-hest. When I ask for it, that small handful get annoy and berate me for not trusting them to keep me alive. I don't get it. It takes a few seconds to cast and makes things easier.

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Originally Posted by Matrinka

I recently started tanking. It seems that I keep running across healers who refuse to cast protect at the start of either a dungeon or a guild-hest. When I ask for it, that small handful get annoy and berate me for not trusting them to keep me alive. I don't get it. It takes a few seconds to cast and makes things easier.

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To be fair... at SUPER low levels I don't have Protect on my healer. I prefer Swiftcast/Cleric Stance. Once I get more slots open I do have Protect as well. ^_^;;

Entered a Brayflox run with my lv 33 Blm. Said hello with a smiley face to everyone and was completely ignored. At the second boss the healer starts spamming a macro to stop attacking the boss cause they are reposing it but no one listens, no big deal. Run going fine so far. After second boss tank runs through the ENTIRE next room to the frog and we wipe. He is using lv 20 NQ white gear btw. We start again and he does it again and wipe ensues. We finally get to the frog and he spins it in circles, no one has said a word yet. After we finish the frog and start moving to the dragon we do the first pull and then right before we make it to the second pull I'm dismissed. Wtf lol. Went back through combat logs for their names and reported the lot of them but I was still pissed. Seems I'm encountering A holes in DF more and more lately.

Leveling roulette.

Went into an in-progress Titan normal mode. As I finally load in, I notice Titan about to slam the floor in my general direction.

You all can probably guess what happened next.

Earlier today I finally got my clear for A4 Normal. Did it with Bard and cleared after only 1 wipe.

Just now, I tried it again with Bard. First try went fine till healers died. Then after I think the 2nd wipe, I was kicked for no reason. O.o
I didn't do anything wrong from I what I could tell.No one said a thing and a BLM was kicked before me. Sure was a shock.

Something is totally wrong with some people.... Oh well.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Leveling roulette.

Went into an in-progress Titan normal mode. As I finally load in, I notice Titan about to slam the floor in my general direction.

You all can probably guess what happened next.

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Come on and slam and welcome to the jam
Come on and slam if you want to jam

:3

Log in, continue Relic Quest grind. Finished off my Expert roulette for tomes so now onto level 60.
So I get in and its neverreap.(yay...) The party was one Paladin, one Scholar, two Dragoons(one being me).
Well double Drg isn't too bad with multiple mobs. I've had runs like that before.
The other Dragoon is sitting at 12k hp. I assumed she's new or its not her main. Well hopefully the paladin isn't a complete Vit-NOPE.
All Vit. Well thats not bad I guess. Not everyone's comfy full strength(I try to at least have one or two vit items during tanking. I'm kinda spoiled on them though since things die so fast. But anyway)

First island. Heavy thrust, BFB, Internal Release, line up and doom spike a few times. Oh look, I pulled. Tank couldn't pull off me so I killed the mob.(It was that large moth thingy)
"Why does this feel so slow?" I was thinking. Jump to second island. Tank pulls the first two mobs. A few minutes later then pulls all of them up to the large gap before the first boss.

You know that one part with the tornado moving back and forth in front of the boss gate? Yeah so now try to imagine yourself on your melee fighting these mobs, with a moving paladin who is about to die. Oh and don't forget the tornado. Its gonna hit you, constantly.
Yeah imagine this plus running out of TP and this fight lasts a long time. A LONG time. Any sane person probably would have said "F this" and left.
I must be a glutton for punishment. Have to be if I'm still doing this quest. xD

So we eventually kill the enemies and run to the boss.
Someone in the party says "We did good." The rest agree.
I'm thinking to myself "............"
So I look at my Dragoon buddy. She's mostly outfitted in library gear. Except for the HQ Sky pirate outfit.
Accessory check. Two vit items, the rest Dex. No strength at all. I've been seeing a few dragoons randomly packing dex. Wonder what thats about. o_O

So we get past first boss move onto second boss. Dragoon buddy doesn't use chaos thrust combo at all or her pheb DoT. Just normal combo and blood of the dragoon at random parts. Scholar can't seem to dps much cause of paladin taking too much damage.

A few bee stings later we make it to the second boss. Second boss takes a long time. I tanked him a few times. Make it to final boss. Tank seems to slightly tick off the scholar by casting stoneskin. Tank falls off at first turbine. I tank the rest of the boss.(Bye Positionals) Eventually the boss dies. Get one comm.

Well that was something.
You have quite the job ahead of you Faust Sensei.

ex roulette. me as blm, a pld, a drg, a sch. Nice aoe in dps and heals right? Pld pulls 1st big group in pharos. Pops hallowed and has a macro to let pty know. All good. Pld is at ~85% Then I look at the sch. Spamming physick -_-. No dots + bane or shadow flare in the hallowed window. Drg is single targeting a big mob pull. I sigh a sigh of sadness as I flare.

Toto-Rak via leveling roulette on my ninja. I rip off hate from the warrior after two attacks, the warrior throws an /annoy emote to me and then marks the mobs during the next trash packs. Probs they thought I focussed the wrong mob or something like that... well, I hit the mob marked with a 1 and steal aggro after three attacks instead of two. That's an improvement, I guess ^^'

Oh, and during the final boss three of us dc'd: first the scholar, then myself, then the thaumaturge as they told me after I relogged. It was a bit much for me to think of a coincidence - did anyone of you experience any issues of this kind on Chaos datacenter? It was at about 8:50 pm (ST).

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Originally Posted by Fluestergras

Oh, and during the final boss three of us dc'd: first the scholar, then myself, then the thaumaturge as they told me after I relogged. It was a bit much for me to think of a coincidence - did anyone of you experience any issues of this kind on Chaos datacenter? It was at about 8:50 pm (ST).

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Chaos had a derp last night. Looooots of d/cs.

Felt a little bad tonight. Was OT in A4. Really tired from relic overgrind. Went to pick up balls, heals in an odd position and I was too tired to notice. Spread Nisi around. To the healers credit, everyone was picked bak up and a healer lb3 went out at one point. But the group just couldn't get back on its feet. It caused a wipe, I felt bad, people left. Insta fill and clear though, a rough one. Had to call it a night after that with only 7/10 complete, I like to finish on 10...

I was leveling a pugilist a few months back and a White Mage who was healing our tank in Copperbell Mines Normal Mode couldn't keep up the tank as he was too busy Stoning (with no Cleric Stance either) things to death. The tank died over 5+ times before we made it to the first boss. He kept quiet, but I asked for him to try and focus on healing and was met with the reply: "I'm a DPS White Mage."

*sigh*

We ended off with 20+ deaths until the last room. I felt sooooo bad for the tank :( Vote Kick didn't go through either. Maybe they were... "friends."

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Originally Posted by Parawill

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Blame the meta on this. A lot of newbie topics on the forum about healing end up with responses like: "a healer also needs to DPS", "if you're not using your dps skills you're not a good healer", "healer dps is what differentiates a scrub from a pro". People don't understand that some of these topics are made by people learning about MMOs and healing, and some of them take the tips to heart like it's a rule.