5.3 Preliminary Patch Note

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Wouldn't be a surprise. Enlightened people who stand above the masses usually have other shortcomings.


Or you go through the mechanic, die or survive, and now you know how to deal with it. No Youtube required. Simple boss design, but not bad by a longshot.

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Youtube is required if you want to have a fair fight when you first encounter the boss. No way to read, react or adjust to it during the fight makes it a bad mechanic and a bad fight.

You all really need to try out some more gameplay oriented games. I feel like if this was anything other than an MMO community I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Youtube is required if you want to have a fair fight when you first encounter the boss. No way to read, react or adjust to it during the fight makes it a bad mechanic and a bad fight.

You all really need to try out some more gameplay oriented games. I feel like if this was anything other than an MMO community I wouldn't even be having this conversation.

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Alright, King of Games Goji, what "more gameplay oriented games" that you play that have FF14 should be emulating when it comes to enemies advertising mechanics to make it fair to the New Player?

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

Alright, King of Games Goji, what "more gameplay oriented games" that you play that have FF14 should be emulating when it comes to enemies advertising mechanics to make it fair to the New Player?

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Eh, all of them? Seriously, I don't think I've actually played another game where enemies kill you in 1 hit with attacks that don't have tells you can react to.

If we're looking for a specific example most of you have likely at least heard of, I'll go with Dark Souls. Every attack has an animation and a hitbox that's reasonably accurately represented by that animation. Everything the enemies throw you can see coming and react to it during the fight.

Dark Souls series has unfair deaths (attacks whose animation doesn't allow you to predict - cheese- them).

Also, DS has been debunked long ago as overhyping what "good gameplay and difficulty" is. No one serious nowadays tries to hold DS as the sole unique example of what gameplay and difficulty design is.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Dark Souls series has unfair deaths (attacks whose animation doesn't allow you to predict - cheese- them).

Also, DS has been debunked long ago as overhyping what "good gameplay and difficulty" is. No one serious nowadays tries to hold DS as the sole unique example of what gameplay and difficulty design is.

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Dark Souls is a fine example of good gameplay and difficulty; the people who try to claim otherwise have usually never even played the games. Please elaborate on the non-reactable 1-hit kills Souls has; you can't just say that without giving an example.

Plenty of games have better gameplay than Souls, though; I think games like Sekiro and Nioh were substantial gameplay improvements. DMC's gameplay is also far more complex. Dark Souls is just the easiest for people to recognize and dissect for conversations like this.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Eh, all of them? Seriously, I don't think I've actually played another game where enemies kill you in 1 hit with attacks that don't have tells you can react to.

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If the Coincounter was a boss in a single-player game you would absolutely be learning from his physical tells without markers and probably without displayed attack names either. But you also probably wouldn't be trying to fight him while remembering to hit an arbitrary sequence of skills - you're more likely to have a simple attack button and maybe some gimmick tools, and less pressure to keep performing well so you don't let the team down. If you want to spend a few rounds just figuring out what the boss does, you're free to do so without wasting anyone's time.

The flipside of this is that the game has no obligation to let you pass the battle the first time, and death is absolutely a learning tool. If it throws something unrecognisable at you, you will probably die and then learn from that experience - first what to watch out for, then how to deal with it. You're doing this entirely on your own time and not inconveniencing anyone.

The expectations here are different. You don't want to let the group down, so you can't take the same amount of time and attention to learn on your own.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

Eh, all of them? Seriously, I don't think I've actually played another game where enemies kill you in 1 hit with attacks that don't have tells you can react to.

If we're looking for a specific example most of you have likely at least heard of, I'll go with Dark Souls. Every attack has an animation and a hitbox that's reasonably accurately represented by that animation. Everything the enemies throw you can see coming and react to it during the fight.

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So, let me get this straight, DarkSouls has animations that advertise an attack that will be coming at you. These attacks also have a hitbox that is based close to as possible with the weapon or object actually doing the attack? Like a giant, armored baddie using a greatsword. I am also sure there's some sort of sound or speech that indicates when an attack is being charged as well, since humans react to sounds faster than reacting to sight.

So FFIXV doesn't do this at all? Through any of its fights? None?

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Originally Posted by Iscah

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If Coincounter was a boss in a single player game, we would probably have a frame 1 active dodge ability with iframes that allows us to avoid attacks based on the enemies animations. If we had limited mobility and no iframes, like in an MMO, however, there absolutely should be markers indicating what we need to do if the attack can't be survived.

Also, no game has an obligation to let you pass the battle the first time, but there is an obligation to make it possible to do with the information available. If you fail it should be because you made a mistake; not because a mechanic wasn't possible with the knowledge and utilities the game provided.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

So, let me get this straight, DarkSouls has animations that advertise an attack that will be coming at you. These attacks also have a hitbox that is based close to as possible with the weapon or object actually doing the attack? Like a giant, armored baddie using a greatsword. I am also sure there's some sort of sound or speech that indicates when an attack is being charged as well, since humans react to sounds faster than reacting to sight.

So FFIXV doesn't do this at all? Through any of its fights? None?

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There's no way to know Coincounters attack hits 360 degrees until it's too late to do anything about it, and it kills you in one hit.

In Dark Souls you have frame 1 active dodge animations with iframes, so you can avoid attacks based on what the animation looks like. Since FFXIV has limited mobility and no iframes it needs to provide markers, or NOT 1 hit kill you, to create a mechanic that can be reacted to or adjusted for. If FFXIV fails to do either of those things then the mechanic is a failure of basic design principles.

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Originally Posted by Goji1639

There's no way to know Coincounters attack hits 360 degrees until it's too late to do anything about it, and it kills you in one hit.

In Dark Souls you have frame 1 active dodge animations with iframes, so you can avoid attacks based on what the animation looks like. Since FFXIV has limited mobility and no iframes it needs to provide markers, or NOT 1 hit kill you, to create a mechanic that can be reacted to or adjusted for. If FFXIV fails to do either of those things then the mechanic is a failure of basic design principles.

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It’s called trial-and-error, Game King. Something older games had you do plenty of.

Coincounter actually advertises what attack it will do based on its stance, the charge bar (which DS doesn’t have), the aura he makes, battle text box telling you, and on-screen text cues. That’s FIVE cues. If you cannot see something has changed with five cues, you deserve to be hit. Now with this giant red and orange marker, which now makes it six ways the game is telling you something big is coming.

Also, the charge is long, if you pay attention, you can get out of range in plenty of time. If you don’t move enough, yes you will get hit. The hitbox size is consistent, and even if you don’t know the exact pixel of distance you need, you know that the long armed large monster with giant mace is going to swing far, better make sure I go farther then that ASAP.

If you die, then you were undergeared. I have run AV plenty of times as a DPS and healer, with at-level gear, and managed to survive being hit.

SE gives the player enough to make up the shortcommings of a game that is multiplayer and all events are happening in real time. DS can do iframes with frame 1 active dodging. FFXIV cannot do that due to telecommunication limitations. DS isn’t bound to network environments and things like jitter or packet loss.

Before you cast your “New player” card for an attempt at sympathy, don’t bother. This game is super friendly to new players and is very forgiving all the way up through the main storyline. I’ve played other MMOs that actually were deadly to new players from the start and were not as forgiving as FFIXV. This includes FFXI.

If someone dislikes the XIV gameplay so much and hardly participates in it anyways maybe the game isn't for them.