What Classes Do You Want to See Next?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

Again, there is only one working pet in the game and that is your Companion Chocobo. I think that is probably the best jumping off point for this concept (and indeed, the Companion feature feels like it wants to naturally balloon out and flourish into a quasi-BST feature anyway).

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I wonder if it's possible to convert the data into instances. I'd love the system to be expanded upon in any case. Back then, I mostly started FF14 for the Chocobo and I still have 0 urge to farm other mounts. Actually, Hunter also convinced me to try WoW back in the day.

In hindsight, I feel like BST could actually lure in more people than I initially realized.

If conversion isn't possible, maybe the pet could function as a companion in the overworld and as egi/faerie (with standardized kit? / other players being able to turn them off visually) in multiplayer dungeons.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I am in agreement on this. While I think Shurrikhan's idea of having a small cast of pets is probably the best way they could implement a BST, it would still be a pet class with all the pet bugs. And if we take out the pets and make them a casting rotation, it's just like every other class (you compare it to SMN but I'm actually getting more MNK vibes with Couerl/Raptor forms).

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Just two quick notes:

• I think the idea could certainly be read either way, but I had most imagined it akin to an impactful Fists of Wind/Fire/Earth, whereby all but 3-to-6 player abilities (which total to about two-thirds of your hotbar) would be swapped in accordance with your pet (though an increased portion of them would still function rather similarly in sub-type B, since it might otherwise get just a bit overwhelming, even when amounting for the change in direction I'd like to see per Background Change #2).

• Each pet would have its own pallet of CDs, but under the same (shared) cooldowns, so you wouldn't be obliged to swap them just to perform your rotation; rather, there'd be occasional means by which less potency could still nonetheless, through utility, be an rDPS gain, be that through downtime reduced or healing GCDs saved or perhaps even a second-tank made just barely unnecessary.

• I suspect fixing pet behavior will be worthwhile regardless. To otherwise locks out far too much (including opportunities for Trusts and Squadrons). I know development has historically, and especially of late, preferred shortsighted fixes, but I don't think that's a course we can keep without some serious problems down the road.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just two quick notes:

• I think the idea could certainly be read either way, but I had most imagined it akin to an impactful Fists of Wind/Fire/Earth, whereby all but 3-to-6 player abilities (which total to about two-thirds of your hotbar) would be swapped in accordance with your pet (though an increased portion of them would still function rather similarly in sub-type B, since it might otherwise get just a bit overwhelming, even when amounting for the change in direction I'd like to see per Background Change #2).

• Each pet would have its own pallet of CDs, but under the same (shared) cooldowns, so you wouldn't be obliged to swap them just to perform your rotation; rather, there'd be occasional means by which less potency could still nonetheless, through utility, be an rDPS gain, be that through downtime reduced or healing GCDs saved or perhaps even a second-tank made just barely unnecessary.

I don't dislike this concept at all. Again, it is very focused compared to most other BST proposals I've seen. It's like a simplified version of BLU's role swapping.

• I suspect fixing pet behavior will be worthwhile regardless. To otherwise locks out far too much (including opportunities for Trusts and Squadrons). I know development has historically, and especially of late, preferred shortsighted fixes, but I don't think that's a course we can keep without some serious problems down the road.

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I think we are probably past pets in XIV. I think after years of trying to make them work, the devs have given up and want to focus on making rotations as consistent as possible, and abandoning pets was the easiest solution. Like an elemental system, I don't think they could ever bring it back without (a) players clamoring for all the previous pet jobs to be returned back to the way they were, and simultaneously (b) complaining that the whole transition is more of a regression than an evolution.

I have made peace with the fact that XIV just isn't the pet MMO, and that the concept shined a lot stronger in X, XI, and XII.

A dot class now that summoner is no longer one.

That is it.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I think we are probably past pets in XIV. I think after years of trying to make them work, the devs have given up and want to focus on making rotations as consistent as possible, and abandoning pets was the easiest solution. Like an elemental system, I don't think they could ever bring it back without (a) players clamoring for all the previous pet jobs to be returned back to the way they were, and simultaneously (b) complaining that the whole transition is more of a regression than an evolution.

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I understand that concern but I think all it needs to be averted is a unique, significant offering. For instance, consider an action that you can actually execute, queued, even when in the middle of your (the master's) animation. That's significantly more fluid than even a common oGCD.

I feel the reason the devs were able to remove pets with so little resistance (still hardly "little" on the whole, but far less than you'd see in most MMOs) was that even the initial iteration was so barebone. Going back to that meager allowance would indeed be regressive, but going past it... not so much.

Consider GW2 and their mounts, for instance. Had they merely matched other MMOs' mounts after having centered its experience for so long on having no mounts, it would have perhaps felt a betrayal; but by going beyond it to have one of the most involved mount experiences, it was applauded both by its players and those outside it, forming one of the largest contributing factors, allegedly, to new players joining with Path of Fire (the expansion in which mounts were finally released).

Simply put: Going half-assed will put development on its ass and make it look ass; actually doing a great job, though, forgives nearly all past encounters with a given subject, and often carries its own redemption or innovation story just through the contrast.

blitzballer!

Water or Ice themed dps or healer. The lack of water/ice aspected or visual attacks that players have access to in general content as their main damaging means or big damage button is almost baffling.They're nonexistent (I only remember NIN's Hyosho Ranryu, and maybe Midare(?)). Mostly are just more flashes, lights, and explosions. Any remaining hopes that I have that WHM will get some sort of water aspected spell is gone now that they've announced the deletion of Fluid Aura in EW.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Consider GW2 and their mounts, for instance. Had they merely matched other MMOs' mounts after having centered its experience for so long on having no mounts, it would have perhaps felt a betrayal; but by going beyond it to have one of the most involved mount experiences, it was applauded both by its players and those outside it, forming one of the largest contributing factors, allegedly, to new players joining with Path of Fire (the expansion in which mounts were finally released).

Simply put: Going half-assed will put development on its ass and make it look ass; actually doing a great job, though, forgives nearly all past encounters with a given subject, and often carries its own redemption or innovation story just through the contrast.

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True, I agree that a massively different take could mitigate player complaints, but look at what we are working with:

a) a team that notoriously adds underdeveloped dead end features like BLU or Deep Dungeon or Chocobo Racing.

b) a pretty rigid role system that every class must be balanced against or players complain.

c) a fanbase that already has expectations of a beast master being implemented ala FF XI.

Even if the devs were able to design such an awesome job, it would still likely need to be toned down to match the rest of the meta, unless they are suddenly willing to completely retool some 20 jobs to match that level of uniqueness at the same time.

And even if they did, and it fell anywhere close along your proposed idea, players would still complain that it only has X animal companions and that they couldn't collect Y pokemans.

And while I personally would be totally fine risking that third barrier because popular opinion tends to be terrible, I still feel like the other issues are fairly significant.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Water or Ice themed dps or healer. The lack of water/ice aspected or visual attacks that players have access to in general content as their main damaging means or big damage button is almost nonexistent (I only remember NIN's Hyosho Ranryu, and maybe Midare(?)). Mostly are just more flashes, lights, and explosions. Any remaining hopes that I have that WHM will get some sort of water aspected spell is gone now that they've announced the deletion of Fluid Aura in EW.

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Samurai is kinda ice themed (along with BLM and NIN). I think NIN is the only class with a water spell now that WHM lost fluid aura.

BLU is kind of a soft water/ice mage, but we don't talk about BLU.

Given that we have SAM and I love keeping it unique, I would go for a water class first. A chemist could do a lot of work with tinctures, elixirs, poisons, acids. Also a blitzballer could have water attacks.

A BST class is not impossible to be implemented. Nor should it not be implemented. However remember what Yoshi-P said? Due to that horrid plague that infected our world, a lot of projects were pushed back. Now given further time those projects might be renewed. But likely some will not. We've only seen two real BST class users. Lyon and Ran'Jit. And that was before the plague hit.

Also I still keep hearing people harp on BLU for reasons I don't understand. Why do people keep hating on BLU? Because it's limited? We've all seen how OP BLU can be. It can take over any role in the system depending on the skills chosen to be used. And honestly I like BLU for how it was introduced and how it may yet improve given TIME. The biggest problem the community is facing is people wanting everything they want now and the heck with what the actual creators are planning for us. The plague ruined a lot of things and yet people were fussing over SE still needing their subscription even though things would take longer. Remember that?

That being said. BST is still a possibility. My suggestions are as follows:

• Find a gimmick for BST that makes it awe inspiring. The ability to merge with your beast's spirit and gain improved skill sets involving the partner beasts powers. Like Ran'Jit was able to do. You could use RPR void avatar possession skill as a base.
• Find a tool or weapon that symbolically can be used with BST. Either a 1 handed Axe like in FFXI or something else. Shields are also a possibility that differ from GLD/PLD shields.
• As for the beasts themselves make them not common ordinary beasts but majestic beasts like Dawon, or Gukelheinz. Beasts you don't find out in the environment but are tailored for the class. Beasts that rise in level with you similar to your Chocobo companion.
• Another possible idea to implement is you can search out special beasts and fight them to tame them. Combine the aspects of a shaman and a BST and earn your beastly companions by connecting with their aetheric wavelengths or something that Garleans weren't capable of doing.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

True, I agree that a massively different take could mitigate player complaints, but look at what we are working with:

a) a team that notoriously adds underdeveloped dead end features like BLU or Deep Dungeon or Chocobo Racing.

b) a pretty rigid role system that every class must be balanced against or players complain.

c) a fanbase that already has expectations of a beast master being implemented ala FF XI.

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While I certainly understand the idea that we must make use of the resources available to us, I don't think we can afford to assume that our resources are limited to those failings. We've seen some oddly great executions, too, after all, and if the shortfalls really were the end and crown of development thus far, there's just not really much left to us. Better to push that boundary, in my opinion, than oversell the realist angle.

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Even if the devs were able to design such an awesome job, it would still likely need to be toned down to match the rest of the meta, unless they are suddenly willing to completely retool some 20 jobs to match that level of uniqueness at the same time.

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Indeed, but I'd suggest the solution then is to build the others up first via small steps. While I don't think the dev team can afford to rush ahead to such drastic changes as I've proposed, I do think small steps in those directions could be, themselves, healthy and immediately gratifying.

Let's take a quick example:

In terms of diversifying roles, a suitable first step wouldn't require any more than perceptibly greater cross-role output and active defensive play. That might sound big, and its necessary corollaries would quickly ramp up, but the initial concrete changes involved are really quite straight-forward, e.g.,

• Increase the effectiveness of mitigation and self-sustain tools like Third Eye, Fists of Earth, and Life Surge,
• Increase the effectiveness of curative tools like Everlasting Flight and Vercure (at compensatory increased MP costs or the like),
• Give Warden's Paean two other versions/modes, based on one's current Song.
• You offer reduced button bloat where buttons are utter non-decisions (in the vein of Dream Within a Dream -> Assassinate or even just click-on-CD skills like Lucid Dream that may as well be passive) and in their place offer back some CC, such as Tri-bind and Miasma's slow; Tether and a slow on Verstone and interrupt against regular mobs on Verthunder; Freeze, Blizzard, and Blizzard II again having their effects; etc., etc.
• You free up 2 charges of Enkindle on Summoner to generate a specific ability based on your current elemental Trance. Two of the five would be relatively pure damage and therefore the place where you'd most often use them in role-constrained play, but the other three trances' uses would now have significant utility atop a decent but still inferior bit of damage (e.g., a Reflect if at melee and Gaol if at range for Titan, Charge if at range and Stun at melee for Ifrit, Knockback from melee and draw in at range for Garuda).

Now, how does one follow that up?

• Since DPS are otherwise now "further stepping on healers' toes" or "left with insignificant bloat skills", you make healing duties more frequent, numerous, and integral; there's now plenty of footwork to be done and any help in that regard is no longer "insignificant" or "bloat".
• Since you've made healing more than sequencing oGCDs between Glare/Broil/Malefic spam, you might need provide slightly more involved, deep, and in-context instruction for healers. Well, that would already have been important for reducing community tensions; we've merely placed learning opportunities more tightly against the average player experience.
• Since CC would otherwise seem mere bloat against bosses, you might re-envision its effects or raid/trial encounters slightly, such as by actually having (CC-able, though perhaps at reduced duration) adds appear in raids and trials again and/or having alternate, interesting effects for each CC for when it fails to deal its status effect.
• Now that CC is back, you might invest a bit further into content types that'd make use of it, or at least needn't quite so constrain new content to the straight-and-narrow.
• Since other jobs now have versatility available to them that can step into the domains of those for whom MP is (somewhat of) a real mechanic, you might reevaluate the point of MP, rather than leaving it mostly bloat.
• Now that healers, due to the increased frequency/number/depth of healing tasks/play within a given encounter, actually make use of GCD heals again, you might use that opportunity to further reshuffle the powers in their toolkit towards the healthier.
• Since DPS will now have further self-sustain skills, we might want to further leverage that in solo content and in group content, such as by having enemies hit for more than a pittance and by having more enemy skills naturally skillshot (hit the first enemy within the given angle), trample (deal decreasing damage with each victim hit, or as if facing cumulative mitigation across each), or split.
• Since we've already combated bloat on less often used skills, we may as well take that further. Xeno and Foul, Guren and Senei, and The Forbidden Chakra and Enlightenment, for instance, have no reason to be separate buttons so long as you'd never chose in AoE to focus just the one target over dealing greater total damage via the AoE version. That said, we've now got CC back, so our best solution is to make situations where we might want to focus the one over that total damage.

While that may sound like the natural implications of those first few simple, concrete changes (a stronger Third Eye, Life Surge, and Everlasting Flight, for instance) are rapidly spiraling out of control, I'd argue otherwise. They add up quickly, but each is sound, healthy, and still immediately gratifying.

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And even if they did, and it fell anywhere close along your proposed idea, players would still complain that it only has X animal companions and that they couldn't collect Y pokemans.

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That, I think, is fine. I think what people get sold on most in a new job is neither quite just the practice or just the principle, but the overall vision, which isn't quite divisible to either single side. Simply put, the largest factor here would be the initial presentation, and I do think that could be done in a way that would be broadly and deeply well-received. Both those dimensions are vital, but I think the devs tend too often to overlook the latter in the attempt to be as universally appealing as possible. Heck, if there were absolutely no detractors, I'd almost think that a bad sign.

But again, this would be a 7.0 thing at the earliest. For the time being, this would all be about the small steps, such as a new sort of Exploratory that finally learns from Diadem's, Eureka's, and Bozja's mistakes making the case for this or that coming back or being a tiny bit more powerful, and then the chain of events, each small and even individually understandable, that could flow from there.

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Samurai is kinda ice themed (along with BLM and NIN).

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Wind, predominantly. All but a some six skills (related to flowers or sight) have to do with the sky or wind. Even the one seemingly ice-type spell, Yukikaze, is still a type of wind (literally: Snow-wind).