Make FFXIV more like FFXI and less like WoW!

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

You see the same thing in this game with the Fatigue system being similar to tome/scrip caps and time gates at everything, there's still stats that do not matter, the areas were even more lifeless because there's barely anything to do in it, classes still existing, zerging in the open world, lazy/copy-paste content and a lot more questionable design decisions. Yoshi-P's vision for the game is doing your roulettes everyday, waiting for your queue to pop up while you're on a hub and cap on tomes/scrips for the week. After you're finished, you wait for the next week/patch to come up.
This game has its own issues similar to 1.0 but people fail to see it since ARR is the better game.

People believe FFXIV was successful was because it was better than 1.0, but if you compare it to other successful MMOs out there, then it's lacking so much.

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You are not limited on how much you want to level you job. You are not limited to 30 minutes of content every 48 hours. It takes the average person that full week to get weekly tomestones.

You really want to compare areas in 1.0 to ARR's? ARR has towns, NPC's, events, and so on the map. Since the area isn't relevant at the time does not make it lifeless. You learn of where you are at through quests and the main scenario. You never got that from 1.0 except some back stories you read on the internet. Copy/paste is a ill thought argument. 1.0 was a literal copy and paste. If you want to call out 2.0's, then you are going to have a much harder time, especially since the idea of zones instead of seamless to begin with is so they could make unique areas and not a strong need to copy/paste anything. I have not once looked at something and went "I saw this over there.", not saying it isn't there, but they do a good job making unique places in zones. 1.0 within 15 seconds you would find the same exact terrain.

The development team's vision as said from them is to play at your own pace. Rather if you want to log on for a day and get a few things done, or once every other day. Or if you want to go hardcore on it, you can. If you do not understand why the tomestones are on a weekly lockout, then you don't understand how design works on a raiding level or overall progression level. All the ilvl230 gear shouldn't all be obtained on the first week, then there would be a reason to complain. Why not try to understand why something is there first before calling it out.

Sure you can call FFXIV out for some features that can be improved on. Argument isn't if it is a perfect game or not, because it isn't. Its the particular aspects that make it good that people feel this need to call out on without even looking into it or letting their ass speak on their behalf. If you want to play the compare to other MMO's game, sure maybe one MMO might do something better, but you forget that same MMO you compare has a lot of faults of it's own, even WoW.

I do wish people would look at a design choice, actually try to understand why its there, and if you still don't agree, then suggest how to make it better. If you want to fix an issue, you need to understand it first.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

The development team's vision as said from them is to play at your own pace. Rather if you want to log on for a day and get a few things done, or once every other day. Or if you want to go hardcore on it, you can. If you do not understand why the tomestones are on a weekly lockout, then you don't understand how design works on a raiding level or overall progression level. All the ilvl230 gear shouldn't all be obtained on the first week, then there would be a reason to complain. Why not try to understand why something is there first before calling it out.

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That is not working.

A player playing at their own pace, if said pace is slow, gets left absolutely behind. While players with endless free time and the will to go through the grind, get an advantage. The distinction between casual/hardcore players is far too wide and far too dependant on time investment, with no link or alternative between them. The diference between casual and hardcore and the content you do is not based on skill or capabilities as a player, but how much time you can put into the game. That is a bad design desicion from the player perspective. Is amazing if you have to charge a monthly fee.

Now that is also not true. If gear could be accesible at a faster pace, players will probably be encouraged much more to participate in content for longer time than this artificial time creation through long grinds. Since players will be rewarded faster and more progressive, if you get a weapon somewhat quickly, one or two weeks instead of seven... You are encouraged to repeat said content to get more weapons. If you only get one weapon in seven weeks, by when you get through the grind, you feel tired and you don`t want to see said content anymore, you are probably done with it and will drop it, also, the longer time makes it be "closer" to the end line that is the next update. So, a weapon that takes that long to get, halfway though a patch time is already irrelevant or unconvinient to get, by when the next patch arrives is just a waste of time, and instead of making content to live longer, this forced grind and delayed rewards just make it live shorter.

If anything, considering the speed of the patching, everything in this game should take half the grind it takes in average. Probably a bit more, it would increase the enjoyment of achieving things in a progressing manner and would skyrocket the replayability value of content. Where now it "dies" after the grind is, if things were more accesible, people wouldn`t have problems going back to get more of them.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You are not limited on how much you want to level you job. You are not limited to 30 minutes of content every 48 hours. It takes the average person that full week to get weekly tomestones.

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I said it was similar because they are both time gates. It gives less opportunity to gear up more jobs and no it really takes about 4 roulettes, maybe throw in some other quick roulettes and you're done for the week. Why run that content if it'll negate you with any reward? You can easily cap scrips in a day and then you have to wait a week again. Normal raids give you 1 item per tier and then you wait the whole week. Same with the 24-man raid. etc.

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NPC's, events, and so on the map. Since the area isn't relevant at the time does not make it lifeless. You learn of where you are at through quests and the main scenario. You never got that from 1.0 except some back stories you read on the internet. Copy/paste is a ill thought argument. 1.0 was a literal copy and paste. If you want to call out 2.0's, then you are going to have a much harder time, especially since the idea of zones instead of seamless to begin with is so they could make unique areas and not a strong need to copy/paste anything. I have not once looked at something and went "I saw this over there.", not saying it isn't there, but they do a good job making unique places in zones. 1.0 within 15 seconds you would find the same exact terrain.

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Which is still really a shame because the zones are irrelevant. Full of life because of NPCs and FATEs? Sure, but it's barely full of players unless there's an event involved in that zone.
I'm aware of how copy-paste 1.0 was so I didn't even mention it. 2.0 zones were good aesthetically but they're barely put into good use. The copy-paste content around here is recycled mechanics, dungeons, relic grinds and even new content like Palace of the Dead etc.

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The development team's vision as said from them is to play at your own pace. Rather if you want to log on for a day and get a few things done, or once every other day. Or if you want to go hardcore on it, you can. If you do not understand why the tomestones are on a weekly lockout, then you don't understand how design works on a raiding level or overall progression level. All the ilvl230 gear shouldn't all be obtained on the first week, then there would be a reason to complain. Why not try to understand why something is there first before calling it out.

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I do, but you're missing my point. I've already mentioned why it's similar to the Fatigue system. Playing at someone's own pace is impossible if there is something that's going to block somebody's progression if they're too quick, and they'll be behind others if not, but I understand since time gates are a common concept in MMO like this.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

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I can see your point here, it's not actually a bad point at all and I can agree with some of your assertions. I do agree the grind should be lessened and you should be able to get more gear more quickly as I find myself with only just enough time to gear up 1-2 classes before the gear is obsoleted and we start over with the vertical progression model. If I could gear up all the classes I like to play (drk, pld, drg, blm, mch, whm, and mnk) in full 230's before the next patch hits, I would certainly do so. But as is, I can't because of the lockouts on WC and Lore tomestones so I can only gear up my two favorites (drk and drg) and while you can say I'm able to gear up drk and pld together because of the shared tank gear from lore tomestones, that is not always the case for things like esoterics which were class specific when they were the best gear.

As far as gearing up those classes, I manage my time really well and in other MMO's I could usually gear up all my favorite classes because even though there were weekly caps and lockouts, I had multiple characters I could gear up and no I don't think making an alt is a viable solution in this game because of the main story requirements that are in place. If we could get the tomestone cap on a per job basis rather than a per character basis I'd really appreciate that. I'd be running content all the time if I could get gear that way.

Velhart however does have good points of his own.

Weekly caps are indeed there for a reason because the devs don't want players gearing up in a week, it's a conscious design decision to stop players from going nuts spamming content burning out and to keep players playing longer. I respect their decision but I always felt that should be up to the player, if I want to spend 50+ hours (hyperbole obviously) grinding dungeons to gear up all my favorite classes in 230's (if the cap didn't exist), I should be the one to make the decision if I want to do that. The decision shouldn't be made for me. That being said though, I understand the reasoning for the weekly cap and don't want it gone, I DO however wish lockouts were tied to your job rather than your character.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I do, but you're missing my point. I've already mentioned why it's similar to the Fatigue system. Playing at someone's own pace is impossible if there is something that's going to block somebody's progression if they're too quick, and they'll be behind others if not, but I understand since time gates are a common concept in MMO like this.

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Let me just add that I don't think you should compare tomestone lockouts to the Fatigue system. The tomestone lockout just stops you from getting gear at maximum level, the Fatigue system was more about stopping you from being able to level your character as much as you want. The former is a pretty common trait in all theme park MMO's, the latter is completely and utterly asinine.

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Originally Posted by Khalithar

Let me just add that I don't think you should compare tomestone lockouts to the Fatigue system. The tomestone lockout just stops you from getting gear at maximum level, the Fatigue system was more about stopping you from being able to level your character as much as you want. The former is a pretty common trait in all theme park MMO's, the latter is completely and utterly asinine.

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Yeah, I admit I shouldn't have. I thought they were quite similar since both block progression, although block the opposites. Fatigue ""encouraged"" progression with other classes but blocks progression of the class you mainly play while tome lockouts would only make you progress with your main role/job, but not your other classes.

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Originally Posted by Alexander_Dragonfang

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With how this game is set up, your idea is to give people gear as fast as possible to beat content that is already doable without it? Only real benefit gear gives in the game is the ability to clear the higher end of content like raids and extreme trials. Your idea might hold water if the game was catered towards high ilvl play, which in most cases it is not. That is something that is a potential issue, but SE's heavy catering towards casual content makes it as such.

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Originally Posted by dinnertime

I said it was similar because they are both time gates. It gives less opportunity to gear up more jobs and no it really takes about 4 roulettes, maybe throw in some other quick roulettes and you're done for the week. Why run that content if it'll negate you with any reward? You can easily cap scrips in a day and then you have to wait a week again. Normal raids give you 1 item per tier and then you wait the whole week. Same with the 24-man raid. etc.

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Again, the average person does not cap their tome stones or scrips in a day, you are trying to argue on behalf of people who have a mass amount of time and nothing better to do. You can't make content in the idea of people who will cap your stuff in a day or beat your raid the first two weeks. You simply can't fight it beyond capping the amount of gear you can get a week.

Better question is, why do you believe everything should be handed to you in a short period of time? Even FFXI created methods that you don't obtain everything you want in a short period of time. Artificial walls have to be created to create longevity, how you create those artificial walls is another matter, but they have to exist. I guarantee you if walls for tome stones were taken down, the longevity of a patch would be greatly reduced.

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Which is still really a shame because the zones are irrelevant. Full of life because of NPCs and FATEs? Sure, but it's barely full of players unless there's an event involved in that zone.
I'm aware of how copy-paste 1.0 was so I didn't even mention it. 2.0 zones were good aesthetically but they're barely put into good use. The copy-paste content around here is recycled mechanics, dungeons, relic grinds and even new content like Palace of the Dead etc.

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Barely put to use? Areas are used for treasure maps, FATE's, dailies, hunts, gathering, crafting, quests, guildleves, relics, seasonal events, and so on. People still do all of these in old areas and new. How can you say they are not put to good use? You can say you don't like it, but don't pretend areas do not have a purpose. An area once very relevant is not going to be as much when we reach new areas, that is going to be a given thing. I can credit them however to keeping them in good use.

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I do, but you're missing my point. I've already mentioned why it's similar to the Fatigue system. Playing at someone's own pace is impossible if there is something that's going to block somebody's progression if they're too quick, and they'll be behind others if not, but I understand since time gates are a common concept in MMO like this.

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I believe Khalithar explained it well enough.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

With how this game is set up, your idea is to give people gear as fast as possible to beat content that is already doable without it? Only real benefit gear gives in the game is the ability to clear the higher end of content like raids and extreme trials. Your idea might hold water if the game was catered towards high ilvl play, which in most cases it is not. That is something that is a potential issue, but SE's heavy catering towards casual content makes it as such.

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The game IS catered towards high ilvl play. The diference is how to get that ilvl, casual way through mindnumbing slow grinds or hardcore way, investing hours upon hours of raiding. Gear is the reward on itself. Adquiring gear fast will only increase the ammout of players doing content, since people would not be left behind and everyone will feel like progressing in a way or the other, specially true for those who disliked the way SE thinks "casual" means and don`t have the time to get into high end raid content. There is a gap between those two, making gear faster to adquire will fill that gap by encouraging players to replay content and will reduce the number of people "left behind" for the next patch cycle, which will mean all content will be always revitalized and the natural geargrind obsolence will be reduced enough to make items adquired doesn`t feel like a waste of time at the end of a patch or completely obsolete at the start of the new patch.

Also, do not confuse time with difficulty. Some people thinks, and sadly SE seems to do too, that somehow investing time is a way to measure content difficult challenge, and thats offensive to people and a bad way to gauge at which rate gear should be rewarded.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Again, the average person does not cap their tome stones or scrips in a day, you are trying to argue on behalf of people who have a mass amount of time and nothing better to do. You can't make content in the idea of people who will cap your stuff in a day or beat your raid the first two weeks. You simply can't fight it beyond capping the amount of gear you can get a week.

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I play the game for 3-4 hours a day and I get to cap tomes half the week from purely doing undone roulettes, maybe less. It's not that hard.

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Better question is, why do you believe everything should be handed to you in a short period of time? Even FFXI created methods that you don't obtain everything you want in a short period of time. Artificial walls have to be created to create longevity, how you create those artificial walls is another matter, but they have to exist. I guarantee you if walls for tome stones were taken down, the longevity of a patch would be greatly reduced.

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I don't? I just said that tome caps block progression. If anything, I want tomes to be separated for each role.

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Barely put to use? Areas are used for treasure maps, FATE's, dailies, hunts, gathering, crafting, quests, guildleves, relics, seasonal events, and so on. People still do all of these in old areas and new. How can you say they are not put to good use? You can say you don't like it, but don't pretend areas do not have a purpose. An area once very relevant is not going to be as much when we reach new areas, that is going to be a given thing. I can credit them however to keeping them in good use.

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FATEs? Leveling up by doing dungeons is way more efficient, and FATEs gets zerged and that's not "good". Hunts get zerged. Quests aren't repeatable (while dailies are), seasonal events are a limited time only. If you think hunts and forcing FATEs into the relic or events is "good use" then I don't know if you're joking or not.
The only good purpose of the open world is gathering, doing dailies and treasure maps. At least they're putting battle leves into some good use now.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Barely put to use? Areas are used for treasure maps, FATE's, dailies, hunts, gathering, crafting, quests, guildleves, relics, seasonal events, and so on. People still do all of these in old areas and new. How can you say they are not put to good use? You can say you don't like it, but don't pretend areas do not have a purpose. An area once very relevant is not going to be as much when we reach new areas, that is going to be a given thing. I can credit them however to keeping them in good use.

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The issue with the open world is that it really does feel lifeless. there's no sense of danger there no dynamic environment, nothing ever impacts the open world in any way.

the fates for example "help the settlement is being attacked!!" no one turns up fate fails. nothing happens the settlement is unaffected. the opposite is also true. bunch of people turn up clear the fate. nothing happens the settlement is unaffected..

everything in the openworld is trash so you never really stumble across a player or group of players engaged in a proper fight agaist a boss or something remotely dangerous all of that stuff is locked away behind instanced versions of the exact same place. hunts don't count either there not really dangerous its just throw enough bodies at it till its dead. basically the exact same as a fate. just without a blue indicator on the map.

this is one area they could take a lot from xi. be it the conquest system, campaign, or besieged. the state of many zones was always changing subtly. that out post you used yesterday is under beastman control today and you can't teleport. or the runic portals are unavailable because beastmen stole the candescance. little things that made the world feel alive. and also the sense of danger many zones had even at 75 when that was the cap. that danger isn't there in xiv. I can run right past everything without consideration. if it aggros me so what. it'll give up the chase after a few metres... no danger at all. even the dunes in xi were more dangerous. that goblin that would literally chase you all the way across the zone for example...

the open world is incredibly static and dead.... it'd be cool to see players actions impact the open world in some way. and really bought it to life.

look at costa del sol at the minute. more people around because of the moonfire faire but not really bought the area to life. most of them spend 90 seconds burning the special fates and then afk till they repop. it's not exactly "lively"

Ffxiv is unique in its own way. It's not wow and it's not Xi so deal with it. It's successful for a reason