Keep the mob on you and surviveQuote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
That's the simplest explanation on tanks. The rest is for additionnal flavor, and you could easily do the same for healers and DPS, if you like.
(Manage your enmity, put that buff/debuff, dodge AoE, etc...)
And, most importantly, "maximizing your damage output" is not a core part of the job. Before 3.0, people didn't even care about it.
Now, you could add that part to any role, tanks and healers alike...
For me, Gordias Savage really rotted this game's meta...
Are there more tanks playing now?
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03-14-2016, 06:58 PMReynhart
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03-14-2016, 08:39 PMHulk_SmashThis is not true. Tanks maximizing DPS has always been important for raiding. Every since BCoBQuote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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03-14-2016, 10:05 PMReynhartHow come the STR debate didn't appear at the very beginning, then ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk_Smash
Mandotary maximizing DPS comes from the really tight DPS checks. There was no such thing before at least final coil. Any PLD could stay full vit and spam RoH while sitting in Shield Oath 24/7 without it being any issue. Any team could clear anything even with two PLD, and their so-called "abyssmal damage output". -
03-15-2016, 01:47 AMSarcaticaIIRC, the STR build started picking up rapidly mostly in the FCOB, especially the crafted accessories being a really strong all in one. It was already known that a few good raiding tanks went for 5x pentamelded STR/VIT even back in the i70s crafted accessories. Just brought to light that pentamelded became the arguably "single" best accessories to obtain for tanks, after a few patches gone by. The comparison isn't valid because T1-t13 didn't have huge DPS checks too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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03-15-2016, 02:23 AMReynhartQuote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
That's why, even if that was "a thing", it was far from being a main focus...like "something you'd include in the description of the job"Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
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03-15-2016, 03:38 AMLyth
The use of STR gear was established going into SCOB at the very latest. In BG's clear of T9 in 2.2, Sirius Taco was i93 in slaying gear (including a vortex ring of slaying!) Xeno brought the concept into more widespread discussion around 2.3, and more players started experimenting with the concept in FCOB. I suspect that one of the reasons why SCOB served as a catalyst was that the fight designs were so asymmetrical for tanks. A lot of groups ultimately ended up solo tanking T8 and T9 and swapping out the WAR for an extra melee dps, simply because you could. A WAR in STR gear represented a nice compromise where you retained some limited tanking functionality while being able to make up a significant proportion of the damage output that a full-time dps can.
Mechanics like stacks are implemented to force you to use two tanks. Damage split mechanics are an even better way of making both tanks feel relevant (T13 was hands down the best designed fight from an OT perspective, and it's good to see that A8 carries some of the same flavour.) But rather than making it so that we're forced to use two tanks, wouldn't it be better to allow both tanks to be relevant at all times, regardless of whether they're tanking or not? MT or OT, you want to feel like you're a valuable, contributing member of your raid. The fight design philosophy needs to change. -
03-15-2016, 04:12 AMMerkavaHere's a better question, why not? People keep talking as if DPS and Tanking are two mutually exclusive actions. A tank that dies because of improper mitigation (be it because they choose STR over VIT or didn't use proper cooldown) is just as bad as a tank that fails to keep aggro. Aggro and tanking are our main jobs but there is absolutely NO reason we shouldn't be optimizing our damage output at all times. Keeping aggro and mitigating scripted tank busters is childs play, keeping your numbers as high as possible while doing so is where it gets fun and what splits mediocre tanks from exceptional ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Even without the "STR Meta" good tanks will always aim for the highest DPS possible. People should really stop using the "STR vs VIT" argument to justify that they are just mediocre players (not aiming this comment at anyone). I would have preferred SE limit tank damage via Mechanics rather than a straight out nerf (Since stuff in Gordias hit really gently) but alas, good tanks will adapt and keep optimizing. Mediocre tanks will just find something to complain about. -
03-15-2016, 04:13 AMNektulos-Tuor
Damage is a form of mitigation.
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03-15-2016, 09:40 AMThunda_Cat_SMASHObjectively speaking, this is only true when you have self healing tied to dps, or are dying to an enrage or DPS oriented mechanic, like Titan 's heart phase. Pushing phases faster is not mitigating any damage whatsoever, as you're still getting hit just as hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nektulos-Tuor
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03-15-2016, 05:32 PMReynhartIt's not a case of "why not", it's a case of "describe the basics of the job", and maximizing DPS is not part of the basics of tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava
I'm really hating this sentence more and more...because it's abysmaly uneducated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Merkava
Good tanks will not ensure fights go fast, they'll ensure fights go smooth. They'll evaluate their healer, and see how much of a safety net they need. They'll judge their party setup and how they will manage the run.
For example, if you play a PLD and you have a heavy AoE setup, then STR does nothing for you, because you'll want to take as many mobs as possible, probably spam Flash more than damage skills (Which will give you far enough enmity even on VIT build), and offer a big HP pool so that your WHM will have more time spamming Holy in cleric stance before your HP drop to dangerous levels.