[dev1033] Class name changes -> Specialization/Talent Trees Into Classic FF Classes

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Originally Posted by Sorel

I might be. If so I apologize. I'm trying to learn your system so that I do not prejudge or leap to false conclusions (e.g. this is too restrictive). I may eventually come to that conclusion, but I don't want to before I complete understand what you are proposing.

If I understand what you just stated, the only way for a character to gain access to the Monk Job Tree is to rank Hand-to-Hand up. The only way for a character to gain access to the Dark Knight Job Tree is to rank Swordsmanship up. The only way for a character to gain access to the Berserker Job Tree is to rank Axemanship.

In order to have a Berserker that uses a sword, or a Dark Knight that uses an axe, or a Monk that uses a staff, we would need to have those Job Trees have traits like "Equip Sword", "Equip Axe", and "Equip Staff" in order to bypass the Armory System rules.

Or not, and just have those particular job trees be restricted to the weapon of the underlying Armory Class. Just so that we're clear, I am certainly not recommending that. And I don't think you are either.

Have I got it so far, or am I completely off in left field here?

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You would not be able to use Equip Sword, Equip Axe, Equip Staff on another spec besides the one that gets it... That restriction is there to prevent what we have now.

I'm working under the assumption that SE will not change its Weapon = Class feature.

While you have explained everything very well Kuroki, I stand by the fact that we are putting limitations on the character, and a lot at that. Which is fine in one way, but I am still of the mind that SE fixing Stats and Elemental Stats would accomplish some of what you state in your OP.

We know that each class has strengths in two of the Stats lets say for a Glad main stats as it stands would be VIT/STR Major stats and Dex as a third lets call it the minor stat. If we go your route and build a PLD then we would go VIT/STR and instead of Dex put some into Int for cure spells. If we went DRK then we would be doing STR/DEX Major and MND minor for increase in spell damage.

Let us now throw in working Elemental Stats (E.Stats) in the works, they would need to add light and dark into the mix (why they did not is beyond me) for this to work properly. They do not work as intended so instead of fixing it to work the way they were meant to work I would say have them increase your abilities. What I mean by this is that if you where a DRK you would put points into various E.Stats to increase your Dark spells, some in Dark, some in (suggestion) to increase BIO or Poison or what ever other dark spell you have. If you prefer PLD then you want to increase Light in your E.Stats to increase your Cure or what ever other light spell you have.

So similar to XI I guess, but you still have the option to use some of the other stuff that you learned from leveling/ranking up some other job. For example Marauder on STR/DEX since you have less points in Dex the abilities from a Marauder would be less so therefor you are not going to use them as much since they are not that effective. Let us throw in the E.Stats to make it even better, let us say you are using an ability such as Defender (which should of been a Gladadin ability to begin with) if it's E.Stat is Earth based and that E.Stat is lower because it does not do much for your DRK you can still use the ability but it will not be that great.

I do agree though that there should be some limitations, the classes are not that great but can become better, the specialization in my head is that instead of all abilities being able to be used across the board there will only be a subset that can be used and all others will be for certain classes specifically. For example Life Surge for Lancer can not be used by another class, if they do that as a way of Specializing the class then it will make you lean more towards that class if you like the skills/spells they have.

I don't really know how to fix it but I hope I was able to give you an idea of how your system can work Kuroki. I do not want to have the ability to change my Stats taken away and have predefined stats as a solution this is something that was done in XI.

In my proposal I removed Physical Point Allotment / Physical Level in favor of stats based on rank/class like in XI. You will be able to raise your stats by using points within the specialization but not to the extent at which was allowed by physical points.

Limitations is like all things; too much or too little of it is bad.

+1. My main gripe with FFXIV at the moment (besides no content, which no doubt will be remedied) is class homogenization.

I would also like to add my support to this idea. My favorite FF games have always involved unlocking advanced classes. My only concern is using a talent tree system. As long as it is not an exact copy of WoW. Something along the lines previously mentioned like a grid or sphere system would be awesome and very FF like.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

You would not be able to use Equip Sword, Equip Axe, Equip Staff on another spec besides the one that gets it... That restriction is there to prevent what we have now.

I'm working under the assumption that SE will not change its Weapon = Class feature.

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So that I am clear, this restriction is to prevent what, precisely? No sarcasm. I am just unclear.

Taking high level abilities/traits from other classes as was stated in the OP. This is in an effort to make classes unique. The mix-matching going on right now is running rampant in the worst possible way.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

- Players are able to branch out into another spec but minimum amount of points must be spent in 1 spec before moving into another. Example: 30 in MNK / 5 in NIN (for some Evasion+% buff).

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I know we should learn to walk before we should run, but what are your thoughts of being able to allocate maybe a max of 5 or 10 specialization points into another class altogether? Such as a Dark putting 5 points into BLM specialization and picking up a low level Ancient Magic? You could impose cross-discipline penalties, such as halved damage or something, but it would lead to pretty cool combinations.

EDIT: And maybe I am clinging to the current system way too much. But I do think that if the abilities from other classes are nerfed enough when crossing over that it isn't practical to someone trying to min/max their character, then it isn't going to create the problem we have now.

But the DRK would not be specced from the BLM base class Conjurer. That goes against the rules laid out.

And what exactly is a "low level Ancient Magic"? The lowest AM spell in FFXI was 49ish and in this game its low 40s.

Honestly, if that were an option with DRK being the melee oriented damage class it has been and is being made out to be here; Why on earth would you want to spend extra points on nukes?

You were allowed to play DRK/BLM in FFXI that doesnt mean you did it. This illusion of freedom is toxic in the end you're going to be deciding from a small pool of things - those choices might as well be good.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

But the DRK would not be specced from the BLM base class Conjurer. That goes against the rules laid out.

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I'm saying what if you just had specialization points to spend based on the current level of your selected job that could be spent in any other classes specialization tree. You would have to spend the minimum amount of points in your current class first before you could branch out (say 15-20 points if we're saying specialization starts at lvl 20), and then you could spend points in other trees to get unique stats and skills from the other classes, but only up to a maximum to prevent stealing of too many skills.

EDIT: And I realize after rereading this that it wasn't clear. You have to have leveled BLM as well, in order to access that tree.

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And what exactly is a "low level Ancient Magic"? The lowest AM spell in FFXI was 49ish and in this game its low 40s.

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Yeah, maybe not AM, that was too ambitious, but a decent nuke spell. One that wouldn't be available to players from the base classes.