Please add damage meters, Yoshi P.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Stupid question for 100 Alex.

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And yet you seemingly cant answer it. Weird.

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Originally Posted by Bobby66

Boys we did it, 101 pages, and 1,001 posts!

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Aki and I did our best to derail it to something more pleasant but alas this topic is not going to go quietly into the night.

nah also 10 characters

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Aki and I did our best to derail it to something more pleasant but alas this topic is not going to go quietly into the night.

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The door closed years ago. The closest we’ll ever get is in the now, those who want to participate install ACT and we huff on the forum pages for 100 pages.

A parser has never really jived with JP culture, this is more of a west thing and I don’t see them ever adding it in.

I can’t think of a single mainstream MMORPG that has a built in damage meter. TERA?

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

A parser has never really jived with JP culture, this is more of a west thing and I don’t see them ever adding it in.

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According to who?

Why make this assumption?

You realise jp data centre has insanely higher clear rate compared to the west for all content, and that do it by taking it seriously and making sure they play well, guess how they check that

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Originally Posted by Renalt

Aki and I did our best to derail it to something more pleasant but alas this topic is not going to go quietly into the night.

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Joke's on you, this thread can not be derailed as there have never been an rails guiding it in the first place. Checkmate :D

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Originally Posted by raelgun

According to who?

Why make this assumption?

You realise jp data centre has insanely higher clear rate compared to the west for all content, and that do it by taking it seriously and making sure they play well, guess how they check that

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You sure you know what you’re talking about? Most JP players play and raid on PlayStation. Playing for the clear and playing to parse well are completely different things.

Have you ever talked to JP players?

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

You sure you know what you’re talking about? Most JP players play and raid on PlayStation.

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Citation required

I would love some sort of personal score at each dungeon. Where you would get a small personal reward for beating your personal skill or score.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Citation required

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There’s no official data, but it’s not hard to look at the trends of JP gaming on a whole. JP pc rates have increased in recent years but it’s not hard to look up it’s a very console dominated market, especially with RPGs.

https://newzoo.com/insights/articles...-behavior-data

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

There’s no official data

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So you have none, figured. Don't claim what you can't back up t-cup

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Originally Posted by FireMage

So you have none, figured. Don't claim what you can't back up t-cup

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Follow the trends. Not hard. Even for you. Not like you could prove JP plays xiv more on pc anyways.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

You sure you know what you’re talking about? Most JP players play and raid on PlayStation. Playing for the clear and playing to parse well are completely different things.

Have you ever talked to JP players?

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Actually The devs have stated the half the players even in Japan play in PC.

You are just stereotyping here.

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Originally Posted by raelgun

Actually The devs have stated the half the players even in Japan play in PC.

You are just stereotyping here.

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Citation needed.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Citation needed.

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Mean the quote was from years ago stating around 70% were on PC, which I would still say PC users in Japan for FF14 is still a far greater number then you think.

If you want to keep stereotyping, go ahead, by the way, if you read your own link, you will see down enough the multiplayer use for console and PC is about the same which supports my statements then it does yours.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

I would love some sort of personal score at each dungeon. Where you would get a small personal reward for beating your personal skill or score.

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Hold up this actually sounds fun. I like this idea. Maybe make it so you have to achieve a certain threshold for your first time for any sort of reward system to start to prevent people from purposely sandbagging.

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Originally Posted by Edelgarde

Everyone will know who to actually give a well deserved commendation to. Hahahahaha! ;)

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And this is probably ONE of the SEVERAL reasons we will never have DPS meters.

It's not at all the worst one, mind you, but there are a lot of reasons for why we won't have them.

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Originally Posted by FireMage

So you have none, figured. Don't claim what you can't back up t-cup

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

Follow the trends. Not hard. Even for you. Not like you could prove JP plays xiv more on pc anyways.

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I'm still waiting on the day one of you pops the question.

the funny thing is that people dont want damage meters because they know anything can trigger this community's actual toxicity lol

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I'm still waiting on the day one of you pops the question.

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https://media.tenor.com/lEwrw3nmnccA...dfit-laugh.gif

WARN ME NEXT TIME WILL YOU?? :mad::mad::mad::mad:

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Originally Posted by Renathras

And this is probably ONE of the SEVERAL reasons we will never have DPS meters.

It's not at all the worst one, mind you, but there are a lot of reasons for why we won't have them.

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Why? I'm curious. What's wrong with judging people for their actual contributions in dungeons? If a DPS did good damage, they deserve their comms as much as a Tank or a Healer who did their job competently.

There are arguments to be made against the use of damage meters in casual content (some of which I agree with), but I see nothing wrong with wanting to give comms to people who deserve it.

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Why? I'm curious. What's wrong with judging people for their actual contributions in dungeons? If a DPS did good damage, they deserve their comms as much as a Tank or a Healer who did their job competently.

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Because a meritocracy would be horrifying. Better for these things to be based on visibility and pretense alone. /s



(That a meritocracy [or, a slight shift there-towards, as opposed to commendation being given based on assumed guidelines alone] shouldn't terrify anyone is obviously just my own opinion, based largely on the premise that there are already undue influential dynamics --just as prevalent and severe as any compulsion to "optimize everything" that people fear would overtake even places for which there is no such need or relevance-- that we just don't notice as easily because they come in more myriad forms of irrational but tacitly accepted social pressures. That is to say, I think we already have all the things that could "go wrong" under meritocratic paradigms, for anyone who'd want to thus get ahead or push rank -- just in a less intuitive, more convoluted form. Not that I particularly think parsers would make the game any more meritocratic that it is now; it'd just give more information from which to make the decisions people had already determined their criteria for.)

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

Why? I'm curious. What's wrong with judging people for their actual contributions in dungeons? If a DPS did good damage, they deserve their comms as much as a Tank or a Healer who did their job competently.

There are arguments to be made against the use of damage meters in casual content (some of which I agree with), but I see nothing wrong with wanting to give comms to people who deserve it.

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Slippery Slope is not a fallacy and one concession to overly meritocratic approach to game will eventually lead to more and more concessions until we reach a point where FFXIV becomes another WoW and videos like this can be made about FFXIV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU

Am I being hyperbolic and paranoid? Perhaps from an outside point of view, but I've been on both sides of the curtain and I'd much rather deal with FFXIV toxic casualism that ultimately compels me to spam /beesknees in a fc club rather than deal with WoW's toxic elitism that ultimately compels me to turn a hobby into a job.

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Originally Posted by Dzonathan

Slippery Slope is not a fallacy and one concession to overly meritocratic approach to game will eventually lead to more and more concessions until we reach a point where FFXIV becomes another WoW and videos like this can be made about FFXIV:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKP1I7IocYU

Am I being hyperbolic and paranoid? Perhaps from an outside point of view, but I've been on both sides of the curtain and I'd much rather deal with FFXIV toxic casualism that ultimately compels me to spam /beesknees in a fc club rather than deal with WoW's toxic elitism that ultimately compels me to turn a hobby into a job.

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... Slippery slope is definitely a fallacy.
DPS actually getting comms for good contribution isn't going to destroy the game. The very same community always complain about mentors yet you tell me that giving comms to whoever plays healer in guildhests is a feature, not a bug?

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

... Slippery slope is definitely a fallacy.
DPS actually getting comms for good contribution isn't going to destroy the game. The very same community always complain about mentors yet you tell me that giving comms to whoever plays healer in guildhests is a feature, not a bug?

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It's a fallacy only if you start calling something a slope slippery out of hand rather than per any evidence of critical thresholds that'd increasingly accelerate the effects rendered.

There's a ton of dishonest information out there that would assure you that so long as a conflict does not appear specifically through party chat, or perhaps even so long as it doesn't feature some element of "exclusion" (no matter how otherwise fair it would be to ask that those who sign up to do something meet at least a minimum level of preparedness and effort by which not to leech off others)... then that must not be conflict at all. Given their skewed metrics though, yes, parsers would appear to actually indicate a slippery slope, which means it wouldn't seem a fallacy to call their introduction a slippery slope.

Now, if we actually look at things differentially --attributing to parsers only what parsers specifically add to the equation, rather than conflating all preexisting factors behind a game's conflicts and/or the ways those conflicts could become noticeable (many of which simply swapped over their expression from one existing means to the new one)-- then no, there would be no significant evidence that the slope is slippery. Even then, though, it'd be hard to call it outright fallacy unless one were to harp on about "but what if ---, what if ----" (while purposely ignoring the systems already in place that deal with exactly those things and/or that the problems already made visible with identical degree and frequency through other means).

The way Dzonathan is looking at it isn't that, though; he's simply advocating for his own preference between two packaged options.

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Originally Posted by Ivtrix

I can’t think of a single mainstream MMORPG that has a built in damage meter. TERA?

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A damage meter specifically? I can't think of one either.

Combat analysis, though? Eh... it depends on how you classify "MMORPG", honestly. Because there are massively multiplayer games like Destiny 2 and Warframe that do an end-of-mission breakdown... and they are often classified as MMORPGs, despite playing differently than something like FFXIV or WoW.

Destiny 2 will break down a couple of things like how many of the kills were yours, how many were precision kills, how many orbs of power you created, etc. (And in some content, on a wipe, also how many deaths you've had, etc...) Of course, this is rarely complete, because someone will yeet themselves out of the instance at Mach 6 the instant the loot pinata is has exploded at the end... and much like comms in FFXIV, if someone's already left, they're no longer included.

Warframe is a bit more general unless you pull up the 'stats' tab, but will still highlight one achievement for each party member, like "82% of damage dealt" (pro tip: EVERYTHING is explosive, if you just believe hard enough... and have the ability to manipulate antimatter), or "21 chests opened" (woo, thank you for the loot!), or "113% accuracy" (gotta love punch-through that can hit more than one enemy at a time) or whatever. The actual "Stats" button at the end-of-mission screen will give a much more detailed breakdown of stuff.

But even there, it's not like even those much more performance-focused and damage-optimization-heavy games give you a live damage meter during gameplay.

Trying to make meritocracies look bad, oof this board has some bad takes

While this thread has been marinating a bit over 1 month, apparently I just noticed the newest 6.3 dungeon's 2nd boss 'parses' your performance by giving you 12 ranks after defeating her, with 1 being the highest (and quite possibly always achieved regardless if you play with trust NPCs) and 12 being the absolute bottom in performance. Now whether she parses the overall performance or individually each player, who knows ;)

Feels like they're teasing us.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

I would love some sort of personal score at each dungeon. Where you would get a small personal reward for beating your personal skill or score.

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This is a good compromise imo. People who want to see their damage/"score" get what they want and those who are worried about a public parser because of possible shaming get the protection they want. Everyone can see their own damage and use it to improve if they so choose. Win/win.

Personally I'd push myself more to beat a "personal high score" compared to being screamed at by randoms for not hitting their own unspoken expectations (excluding advertised parsed runs because at least you know from the start what the person wants). Even moreso if some sort of reward/incentive is provided for reaching certain score milestones.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

While this thread has been marinating a bit over 1 month, apparently I just noticed the newest 6.3 dungeon's 2nd boss 'parses' your performance by giving you 12 ranks after defeating her, with 1 being the highest (and quite possibly always achieved regardless if you play with trust NPCs) and 12 being the absolute bottom in performance. Now whether she parses the overall performance or individually each player, who knows ;)

Feels like they're teasing us.

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It's semi random, I've tested

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

This is a good compromise imo. People who want to see their damage/"score" get what they want and those who are worried about a public parser because of possible shaming get the protection they want. Everyone can see their own damage and use it to improve if they so choose. Win/win.

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Not acceptable, have to be able to see who the dead weight is

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Not acceptable, have to be able to see who the dead weight is

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You mean: "Have to be able to see who the dead weight is so I can shame them and make them quit the game."

As you've mentioned before in this thread: "Make them leave by force if necessary."

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Originally Posted by Kazhar

... Slippery slope is definitely a fallacy.
DPS actually getting comms for good contribution isn't going to destroy the game. The very same community always complain about mentors yet you tell me that giving comms to whoever plays healer in guildhests is a feature, not a bug?

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What the hell you're on about?
I didn't said anything about mentors or healers in guildheists.
Are you high?

Focus only on what I said
And what I said is that slippery slope is not a fallacy.
One concession to dick measuring will lead to another.
Then this accumulated concessions will result in changing the game direction where parsing becomes excessively fetishized.
Thankfully it's not as bad here as it is in WoW but it certainly does not need to get worse.

Besides DPS isn't be all end all unless you're doing savage/extreme/ultimate which is not where majority people are anyway.
The general majority is doing roulettes and ubiquitous DPS meter would only highlight healers and tank even more.

You leveled them just as much as I did, so you should know this very well.
DPS classes dont get their full AoE combos until around lvl 70 or so.
Until then all a healer needs to do is spam their Holy/AoW/Dyskrasia/Gravity for top trash DPS.
Maybe throw their oGCD heals in case their tank is not a Warrior or doesn't use their mitigation.

Same goes for tanks. An unga bunga warrior who only spams Overpower and rushes ahead of the group will keep leaving a more permanent impression in early levels.
Try to pull ahead of him if you want. I'm not sure Bloodbath is a good substitute for Bloodwhetting and it's more likely you'll need a swift ress.

Finally DPS meter wont get you comms because any semblance of meritocratic judgement by the group is thrown out of the window the moment there's a pretty plate with cheesecake Miqo/Viera in it or a shiny animated Relic Weapon.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

You mean: "Have to be able to see who the dead weight is so I can shame them and make them quit the game."

As you've mentioned before in this thread: "Make them leave by force if necessary."

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Damage meters doesn't make the TOS go away. Harassing isn't allowed.
Damage meters doesn't make the TOS go away. Harassing isn't allowed.
Damage meters doesn't make the TOS go away. Harassing isn't allowed.
Damage meters doesn't make the TOS go away. Harassing isn't allowed.

Wanting one thing does not mean that the TOS suddenly aren't a thing anymore. They will still be in play and harassing is still not allowed.
Knowing to why a run takes like double the amount than usual isn't a bad thing, even if you make it out to be.

Most of the time, i can tell who sleeps and who isn't even AoEing in dungeons. Or Aoeing on singular targets.
If only people wouldn't take tips as serious offense against them sometimes.

I get punished hard for trying to help because some people legit don't want to play the game AND get protected by some random whitenight about their "poor feelings" even if i asked something normally, or gave a tip normally.
If they don't want to play the game, why shouldn't others know they don't want to play the game and see their performance tho

Harassing still isn't allowed.

And I can assure you that most people that want DPS meters aren't some "if you don't hit the highest % of damage you're garbage" sort of people. Especially not in dungeons or random trials. Being average is fine to clear basically everything other than Savages and ultimates. Yes, you can clear extremes with being average, many of them are very forgiving.

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

Damage meters doesn't make the TOS go away. Harassing isn't allowed.
Damage meters doesn't make the TOS go away. Harassing isn't allowed.
Damage meters doesn't make the TOS go away. Harassing isn't allowed.
Damage meters doesn't make the TOS go away. Harassing isn't allowed.

Wanting one thing does not mean that the TOS suddenly aren't a thing anymore. They will still be in play and harassing is still not allowed.
Knowing to why a run takes like double the amount than usual isn't a bad thing, even if you make it out to be.

Most of the time, i can tell who sleeps and who isn't even AoEing in dungeons. Or Aoeing on singular targets.
If only people wouldn't take tips as serious offense against them sometimes.

I get punished hard for trying to help because some people legit don't want to play the game AND get protected by some random whitenight about their "poor feelings" even if i asked something normally, or gave a tip normally.
If they don't want to play the game, why shouldn't others know they don't want to play the game and see their performance tho

Harassing still isn't allowed.

And I can assure you that most people that want DPS meters aren't some "if you don't hit the highest % of damage you're garbage" sort of people. Especially not in dungeons or random trials. Being average is fine to clear basically everything other than Savages and ultimates. Yes, you can clear extremes with being average, many of them are very forgiving.

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I'm very aware of all of that and how backwards his logic is. As I've said in this thread already, I don't take anything he says seriously lol. It's morning entertainment before I get my day started.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

You mean: "Have to be able to see who the dead weight is so I can shame them and make them quit the game."

As you've mentioned before in this thread: "Make them leave by force if necessary."

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Silent removal is not shaming them. You seem to have missed that part, so it falls to me to educate you. You're welcome

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Originally Posted by FireMage

Silent removal is not shaming them. You seem to have missed that part, so it falls to me to educate you. You're welcome

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It kinda makes me giggle with how blunt you are on here that you'd just silently remove people without a word. If you got big opinions then shouldn't be afraid to voice them in game or speak to them the way you do here.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

I'm very aware of all of that and how backwards his logic is. As I've said in this thread already, I don't take anything he says seriously lol. It's morning entertainment before I get my day started.

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I see, i'm sorry then!

I just want to make clear that some, not necessarily you, people in this thread seem to be in the opinion that damage meters=harassing is allowed. For some reason.
It is not, it will never be. If somebody harasses you because "your numbers are low" or something, then you can report them and they are in the wrong.

Like, dungeons or anything really don't need it, but in higher content, they would be appreciated for sure. As said, average is enough for extremes.
I wouldn't be against them, I like seeing them in pvp and it's... really telling to who is trying and who isn't. It does help a lot tbh. Sadly, those people who do the worst are the ones that leave immediately and don't even see the result screen, so they will never know...

Being Toxic to people learning/not being as good as you Omegagamer or whatever, will still and should be punished regardless.
I dont care about the performance of somebody that is new in any content, since... they are new, dying is expected.

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

I see, i'm sorry then!

I just want to make clear that some, not necessarily you, people in this thread seem to be in the opinion that damage meters=harassing is allowed. For some reason.
It is not, it will never be. If somebody harasses you because "your numbers are low" or something, then you can report them and they are in the wrong.

Like, dungeons or anything really don't need it, but in higher content, they would be appreciated for sure. As said, average is enough for extremes.
I wouldn't be against them, I like seeing them in pvp and it's... really telling to who is trying and who isn't. It does help a lot tbh. Sadly, those people who do the worst are the ones that leave immediately and don't even see the result screen, so they will never know...

Being Toxic to people learning/not being as good as you Omegagamer or whatever, will still and should be punished regardless.
I dont care about the performance of somebody that is new in any content, since... they are new, dying is expected.

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They're only necessary in Savage & Ultimate. Point blank period.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

It kinda makes me giggle with how blunt you are on here that you'd just silently remove people without a word. If you got big opinions then shouldn't be afraid to voice them in game or speak to them the way you do here.

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I do. Never had an issue