Since healer kits are mostly just "press button to do X potency of healing" fire and forget skills with no interaction between each other I'm sure that you would barely notice in 90% of all pve content.
A summary of healer issues
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03-28-2023, 08:07 PMAbsurdity
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03-28-2023, 09:45 PMForsakenRoeI did have an idea for a charity event for a streamer to do similar to this. Well, kind of, in that the streamer would have less control over their character. The streamer has control of the camera, and their character (WASD, doing mechanics, etc). But the Twitch Chat has control of what skills are used from the hotbars, similar to Twitch Plays Pokemon. The challenge is to beat an EX trial. Can the streamer get through a Rubicante EX without dying, when the chat constantly spams the keybind for Elusive Jump, or Icarus, etc?Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
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03-29-2023, 01:40 AMty_taurus
I’m imagining my play through of FFlV the after years using Calca and Brina. I really love quirky characters, and I do love the dolls for being chaotic like that, but man is that challenging.
Brina’s Dance command used random white magic, so you might heal with cure, or curaga, or esuna, or just give everyone protect. Calca’s jive did random blue magic, so mostly status effects that fail, until you get him equipment that weights his jive toward damaging spells. -
03-30-2023, 12:57 AMGrimGale
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03-30-2023, 01:51 AMSilver-StriderI just want there to be a gameplay loop in my toolkit beyond just 3 Lilies = Nuke.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimGale
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03-30-2023, 01:14 PMRenathras
Looking back to the OP...hm...
As a more or less WHM main at this point (I play SCH and SGE frequently, but WHM is where I return and the first I try new stuff on if possible):
1) I think this is subject to taste. I don't think the issue is that there are simple Jobs or ones with low skill ceilings. Most games of any kind have easy and hard characters/classes, some with little nuance (low skill ceiling) and some with high, some with easy to learn (low skill floor) and hard to master (high skill ceiling) and everything in between. It's fine to have low skill floor and ceiling, low skill floor and high ceiling, high skill floor and low (relative to that) ceiling, and high skill floor and high skill ceiling. Not everyone wants "challenging gameplay", but some do. Not every class/Job needs to cater to both. It's fine for some to have it and others not. I don't want Seraph Strike. I hate it in PvP. I hate the idea of melee on a Caster, and hate that SMN and RDM both are forced into it and SGE semi-forced into it on Plegma. I don't mind Quake/Tornado/Flood, but I'd tie them to Presence of Mind like how PLD Requiescat/Confetior/Swords x3 works. Something like that might be fine. Aero 3 I'm neutral towards; if it's a damage gain in AOE but damage loss in single target, I'm fine with that, as long as it upgrades to Banish or something. I don't care for the Conjurer "elementalist" theme. WHM is a holy element mage, that's what I like about it. [I do agree with the SGE Toxicon 2x damage so it's damage neutral, though. 100% agreed.] {Aside: Note that Thunder was only Cross-Class in 2.0. In 2.1 that was changed to Blizzard 2, I believe. Meaning you couldn't have had them both at the same time. And at any rate, WHM has Holy, so Blizzard 2 is meaningless - me personally, I'd like Water added at level 15 as a big ball that forms above you then pops [the spell works that way in FF8 and FF9], and this could be WHM's AOE that Trait upgrades to Holy at level 45. I'd be cool with that.}
2) Okay, this one I mostly agree with. BarbEx was a bit of a pita because it was higher damage but ALSO higher movement, which meant people couldn't use GCD (cast time) heals. That needs to be considered in any future fights like that (normal versions) if we're trying to "casual-proof" general content, though. But overall, I do agree that more constant, lower individual hit damage is preferable to less frequent but big spikes that can kill people but if they don't, can be patched up with the press of a single oGCD.
3) Is arguably the same thing but from the Job design side instead of the encounter design side (for non-Healers), and I'm fine with that. I don't think some Jobs having healing is bad, I think it's when it's over the top that it is. Honestly, of those, Vercure is probably the one that doesn't offend. Try to heal a 4 DPS run of a 4 man dungeon using only Vercure and you quickly will see what its limit is (alongside not being able to do any damage), which I think is a fair tradeoff. DNC and most Tank heals (Clemency is really the only exception) are either part of their core rotation or oGCDs, meaning they cost them nothing to use and are pretty powerful. This is also true of SMN not including lolPhysic.
4) MOSTLY agree but also disagree at the same time. WHM is clearly missing out on mitigation vs the other three (AST has 2x Collective Unconscious + 1x Nocturnal Stance party AOE shield + 2x [at any give time, via charges] Celestial Intersection; WHM has Temperance on a 2 min CD and 2 charge x Divine Benison). I think the issue is that there are ESSENTIAL tasks Healers have to have covered in some way. The way they cover them don't have to be the same, but the need to cover them is. For example, every healer needs a Raise. In WoW, Druid had only a in-combat one for 2 expansions but didn't have a standard one, and the in-combat one there had an hour CD. So if it was the main healer and two people died...out of luck. If big unavoidable partywide damage is made where it REQUIRES mitigation, all healers need mitigation, and they need it to be roughly frequent enough to use intelligently with those damage spikes, and ideally flexible enough to get other uses in the encounter that rewards intelligent play with a smoother run. So some homogenization IS necessary. THAT SAID: That ends at the essentials. There's no reason that AST should have (almost) WHM's entire GCD healing kit. There's no reason all four Healers should have the same DoT + Nukespam. It's fine if one or even two do, but why should all four? I think there's lots of room to really break things up. SCH in ARR/HW had smaller heals but mitigation to make those heals go farther via the concept of effective HP. Now, the Barrier Healers are just as potent in direct healing as the Pure Healers, and one of the Pure Healers (AST) is practically a mini-Barrier Healer, too! As a WHM, we don't need Shroud of Saints (we already have Lucid) or other similar "here's extra pointless button bloat". We need to consolidate redundant abilities and add interesting ones, not add bloat.
5) I'm not sure I agree with this, but if you mean make Freecure proc from casting Stone/Glare instead of Cure 1, I'm all for that, especially if we have Cure 1 trait up to Cure 2 anyway. Chance your single target damage spell makes your next Cure 2 instant cast and cost no MP. Trait at 52 where it also nourishes the Blood Lily (and doesn't consume a Lily - see my WHM change suggestions below)
6) I disagree with ALMOST all of this for WHM. I am good with having Cure 1 upgrade to Cure 2 (see my idea below), but basically none of the rest. I have a VERSION of Cure 2/Medica into Solace/Rapture (also Regen into an Afflatus ability, whatever name, let's call it Afflatus Comfort for lack of a name for now), but not an outright replacement. There are times I want to hold a Lily for instant movement. The only way this will work is if Cure 2/Medica are made instant casts at that level. I'm fine with this, of course, but that requires a change (see below). Divine Benison and Aquaveil do two completely different things. It makes no sense to merge them. If you mean Aquaveil grants a barrier AND damage reduction, I guess we could do that, but right now, Benison has 2 charges and a 30 sec CD, meaning it can be used freely on Tanks and on party members in danger/low health/about to get whacked by a telegraph where you tend to save Aquaveil for Tankbusters or similar specific cases and it's less available at 60 sec CD and no charges. Plenary Indulgence doesn't need to buff damage, WHM needs a short duration mitigation. Again, I have an idea for this (see below). I HATE DoTs in general, but especially short duration and especially ANNOYING duration ones - 18 sec doesn't line up with the GCD even, 15, 17.5, or 20 sec would. And 30 is fine, there are other ways to fill those gaps (again, see below). Neutral on Tetra, Lilybell could use some kind of change (maybe the stacks are on party members and consumed based on THEM taking damage; kinda like Panhaima). I guess I'm fine with lowering Cure 3's MP cost and I do agree with reverting Thin Air, though.
7) Don't DISagree. See my proposals below to give some more abilities and spice up the rotation a bit across the leveling range, as well as introduce key concepts earlier.
8) While I don't disagree that SB Lilies were awful - most healers do, in fact, use GCD heals for most of the game. Especially on WHM. You're confusing raiders with the at large healing community. Personally, I think WHM should lean into that and be a GCD focused healer, and it already has the building blocks to be that with the way Misery being damage neutral works. I'm not sure you're aware of what the majority of players at level 90 are like. I hopped on AST the other day (I never play and don't like AST, mind you). Just randomly throwing cards, not really bothering with Astrydone, and even forgetting to use Divination for a chunk of the dungeon...I still got a Blue rating when I looked my name up later. If my not at all optimal ham-fisted run was enough to get a 74, that tells me the average player is well BELOW that level of competency. And I only do some Extremes and (only in EW) have done the P1S, P2S, and P5S (first time I've ever done at-level Savages). I think you strongly overestimate what "the majority" of healer players are doing.
9) I don't want to say don't care...but this is honestly a pretty small concern. I do think it's odd Tanks are always male and Healers are always female in promotional artwork and a lot of the gear designs...but I'm not sure this is the issue to die on. Though I do agree some diversity is good, and WHM/AST gear is particularly girly quite often, SCH has usually been pretty unisex, SGE kind of seems so, and in ShB, the Deepshadow (chainmail looking), Cryptlurker, Bozja Resistance and Judge, and at least one set of the NieR 24 man gear (the 9S-ish one) were all not feminine. I'm not saying they're perfect on this, but they aren't terrible, either.
10) I somewhat agree but also disagree on a lot of this. Not every Healer wants to be a DPSer. So not every healer should have a complex DPS rotation, or much of one at all. Healer is NOT always Adventurer In Need. On my datacenter, Primal, most of the time I'm on, there's a healthy mix of Tank and Healer, and DPS is often the AIN for 24 mans and (frequently) Trials and/or Normal Raids. A night or two ago, my Healer Expert que was NOT instant, so I tried DPS and my RDM WAS instant. DPS were more in need, at that time, than Healers. On more rare occasions, I've seen zero Healer and only Tanks and/or DPS AIN. It would appear that new Healers are, in fact, filling in those gaps. I'll also note healers in FFXIV started out more mixed. In 2.X, SCH was much more of a support healer that used GCDs for damage and oGCDs for healing. It could maintain high Cleric uptime since Lustrate and Embrace ignored Cleric. WHM, on the other hand, was often out of Cleric, and was tasked with GCD healing for general party maintenance and spot healing. And the system worked. The problem is the proliferation of oGCD heals now - in ARR, WHM had Fluid Aura, PoM, Divine Seal, Shroud of Saints, and Benediction as oGCDs and that was it. Fluid Aura didn't do healing, Shroud didn't do healing. PoM and DS only modified your GCD heals (and damage spells in the case of PoM since it was casting speed). Benediction was the only oGCD heal WHM had, and the only one that ignored Cleric (aside from Stoneskin since it was based on the target's HP - which SHOULD still be allowed in the game because Shake It Off works that way). WHM was never the Cleric stance dancer that SCH was. And neither was SCH. In practice, SCH spent most of its time in Cleric and WHM much of its time out of it. And both worked fine. We should go back to the idea of healer Jobs working differently/being more diverse, and in WHM's case, being more GCD based.
What I'd do with WHM, personally, I'm not entirely sure. A part of me would be fine leaving it alone since I really enjoy it right now (provided encounter design changed to actually make use of more GCD healing), but if I was going to make changes...like literally EVERY change I'd be open to at once...
1) Trait at level 30 where Cure 1 upgrades to Cure 2. Cure 2's cast time will be reduced to 1.5 sec and MP cost to 500 MP to compensate.
2) Level 15 spell, Water, Spell (GCD), 300 MP cost, 2.5 sec cast time, 2.5 sec recast (GCD), 0 y range, 8 y radius, Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100 to all nearby enemies.
3) Trait at level 45 upgrades Water into Holy, which will cost 100 more MP, do 40 potency more damage to all targets, and inflict 4, 2, 1 seconds of stun.
4) Trait at level 52, Cure 2 becomes instant cast but is otherwise unchanged. When you have one Lily in the Lily gauge, it is consumed instead of MP to cast Cure 2 (can have the Solace visual effect). Nourishes the Blood Lily.
5) Trait at level 76, Medica becomes instant cast but is otherwise unchanged. When you have one Lily in the Lily gauge, it is consumed instead of MP to cast Medica (can have the Solace visual effect). Nourishes the Blood Lily.
6) Somewhere between level 30 and 50, Divine Seal, which is a 2 min CD with just the heal boosting effect of Temperance. Trait at level 80 upgrades this to Temperance.
7) Somewhere between level 15 and 50, Protect, which is a party wide damage reduction mitigation (5% 15 seconds or 10% for 10 seconds). Trait at level 70 upgrades this to Plenary Indulgence, which will keep the mitigation and add the extra healing effect on top of it.
8) Swap Tetragrammaton and Benediction, Tetra at level 50, Bene at level 60.
9) Give Assize 2 charges, maybe make it a GCD. It'd still be different than Plegma and everyone knows it.
10) Level 8, Stoneskin. Make it Divine Benison jr with a 200 potency shield. Alternatively, just readd the original Stoneskin to the game.
11) Convert Holy (and Water) to work like Cure 3; if you have an enemy targeted, it will center the effect on them, and if you don't, it will center the effect on the WHM. Casting Water/Holy on a target can do the Aero 3 twirly staff animation.
12) Trait at level 15 (when you get Water) where every Stone cast places a buff on you that stacks to 4. For each stack, increases the damage and reduces the cast time of Water by 25%. At 4 stacks, Water will do 2x damage (+100%) and be instant cast (-100%). This Trait will upgrade for Holy and Holy III, and obviously Stone iterations and Glare iterations. This will create a rotation where every 4th Stone/Glare cast, you will cast a Water/Holy, and it being usable at range will allow this even if the WHM is forced to disengage. The +100% damage should make it better than the single target equivalents at all levels. Holy's damage will be increased to 150 potency and Holy 3's damage to 170 potency to ensure this as follows: Stone 1 (140), Stone 2 (190), [vs Water at 200 damage with 4 stacks], Stone 3 (220), Stone 4 (260), Glare (290), [vs Holy at 300 damage with 4 stacks], Glare 3 (310), [vs Holy 3 at 340 damage with 4 stacks].
13) Presence of Mind has the additional effect of adding/capping 4 stacks of the Holy damage boosting thing. This "force resets" your rotation for the burst phase and avoids PLD's weird "just cast whatever" thing. I guess it's not strictly necessary, though. In either case: At level 100(?), Trait for Presence of Mind has an additional effect to make it work kind of like Confetior for PLD. In addition to its standard effect, the next three Glare casts will instead be Quake, Tornado, and Flood, strong AOE attacks somewhat similar to PLD's Blade of Faith, Blade of Truth, Blade of Valor. Pressing the same button but getting neater animations. CONVERSELY, could make it where Glare/Dia/Holy are respectively replaced with Quake/Tornado/Flood for the duration of the combo like RDM, I guess. ALTERNATIVELY, make it like...a hyper-simple SMN system (where you can use the gems in any order) where you simply have the ability to use them until you use them or some time (30 sec?) passes. They hit AOE to make them usable in both single target and AOE encounters. The one issue with making it NOT just 3x Glare presses is you can't refresh Dia until you use Tornado, but maybe that isn't an issue or maybe Tornado can apply the Dia affect (and would do so to all targets in AOE...that could be fun...) like how Blade of Valor used to inflict the Goring Blade-like DoT before 6.3.
- Collectively across, this will make WHM's core rotation cadence Aero/Dia every 30 sec/12th GCD, Assize once every 2 min (burst) and one free somewhere inbetween to prevent overcapping, and every 5th filler GCD, 4 will be Stone/Glare with the 5th being Water/Holy, and use 3 Cure 2/Medica per minute (as Lily boosted Solace/Rapture) and 1 Misery, with every even minute fitting the Misery into the burst window alongside Presence of Mind buff and Quake, Tornado, Flood.
14) Revert Thin Air to the ShB version (10 or 15 sec, whichever it was, duration)
15) Add a Lily spender for Regen as well, I don't care what the level is. Same as Cure 2 and Medica where you learn it via Trait at some point and it makes the MP cost 0 to use it as well as it nourishing the Blood Lily to use. Afflatus Comfort or something.
16) Add a lower level Afflatus Misery as soon as Solace is gained (doesn't have to be level 52, but as soon as you get it). At level 74, it Trait upgrades to Misery. Or could even rework the Blood Lily to be that Water/Holy buff thing, though I think there's value to keeping it its own thing.
17) Rework Freecure as you suggest; Stone/Glare have a chance to proc an instant cast (if below 52 when this is relevant), 0 MP cost Cure 2. From level 52 (or whenever you get Afflatus Solace and Proto-Misery), it will also nourish the Blood Lily without consuming a Lily, so basically can get you extra Misery casts, I suppose...though this MIGHT throw off using Misery in burst. So if that's a problem, could instead have it either create a barrier for some percent of the heal OR guarantee a crit (at the risk of being too samey with AST's Benefic one...)
Note that none of these changes...actually require more hotbar spaces. They just make the existing spaces more useful and available for more of the leveling experience (e.g. Holy in single target, Divine Benison from level 6 as Stoneskin), and would arguably shave off at minimum 3 existing buttons - Afflatus Solace and Afflatus Rapture would take the places of Cure 2 and Medica [or Cure 3, see (A) below] when active, and Cure 1 would be directly upgraded to Cure 2. Yet would make the rotation more active, with Assize being used like Plegma, Water/Holy being used after every 4th Stone/Glare, and Presence of Mind activating a powerful burst high-element spell combo.
Unsure about but curious:
A) Trait at level 50, Medica upgrades to Medica 2. Medica 2's initial potency increased to 250 to 400 to match, otherwise unchanged. If this is done, though, Afflatus Rapture might be the Lily effect of Cure 3 instead (since stacking the HoT would just be weird in cases you need to cast several at once), but that might cause more problems unless Cure 3's radius is expanded. This is the one reason I'm not sure if Medica should upgrade to Medica 2 or not.
B) Might have a lower level "Earth", "Wind", "Wave" lower level versions of Quake, Tornado, Flood.
C) A possible change would be to have all GCD heals (regardless of Lily use) nourish the Blood Lily. This would stop penalizing using GCD heals and WHM could become the really GCD focused healer. Doing this, we could potentially remove Tetra and even Assize's healing component if we wanted to, as you'd be using your GCD heals instead to achieve these goals, which is already what the Afflatus abilities are kind of shoehorned into. This one I'm also not sure about, however. Would need some testing to see if it feels good or bad.
Some combination of those MAYbe.
Or I guess just combine Cure 1 into Cure 2 to free up a hotbar spot to add Aero 3 and change nothing else, whatever. /shrug Though I'd personally like ONE more hotbar slot free so I could actually slot Repose and Rescue at the same time. Not that I use them, but I just dislike having abilities not slotted because they don't fit anywhere...
Though, honestly...I'd probably be just fine with that. Aero 3 every 6th or so GCD and used as an AOE opener and Cure 1 merged into Cure 3, Medica merged into Medica 2. That would take care of all the problems with the fewest changes/steps...
Oh, and for the record, I'm fine with "baby's first healer" and hate elemental spells. WHM is a holy mage, not an elemental mage, that's BLM. Go have fun with that or add GEO. You can do what you want with the other three healers if you must, though. Have fun. SB SCH and SB (or HW?) AST, I'll not play either, but I think them being in the game is fine (that way, the Healers aren't all the same and people that enjoyed that playstyle can have it again - everyone wins!) -
03-30-2023, 04:23 PMfulminating
Whm is very much an elemental mage in ff14, this is the same “justification” they used for fucking up summoner. Or please also campaign for sage to be made back into a blm-whm-smn and so on.
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03-31-2023, 01:05 AMty_taurus
When I first started playing, I didn't like white mage being the earth/wind/water mage (especially since the water aspect of that was half-assed with fluid aura and is now just non-existent ignorant of lore), and wanted black mage to have all 6 elements like in past titles, including XI. But since then, I grew to like that aspect of the job as it gave white mage more of a stronger identity other than Final Fantasy's non-religious take on a priest or cleric which is otherwise very bland and uninteresting to me.
Shadowbringers moved away from that concept and closer toward the more traditional white mage with glare and dia, but it also has retained a floral motif that helps the job visually stand out more in contrast to standard white mage of older Final Fantasies while still clinging to the earth/wind/water affiliation as flowers are a representation of the elements of nature. Now, while there are still connotations to those elements, it does feel watered down, and many players--even casual white mages who aren't bothered by the job, miss the use of earth/wind/water. Which is why I feel like it's long overdue that we include an 'action skin' system that lets you choose which variation of a skill's animation you want to use for skills that upgrade. So you could, without dropping the potency, swap Glare III's animation with Stone IV for example. White mage isn't the only job that would appreciate this system. There are machinist players who don't like the acrobatic 1-2-3 combo and would rather return to the more simplistic one, for example, and you could also revive abandoned animations like Bio III on scholar, swap Rain of Death for Wide Volley on bard, or other examples. You could also use that system to add all-new particle effects for spells and actions, like Atori's cherry blossom dragoon animations from Bozja.
But moving back to white mage, the floral motif actually does connect our white mage to Aerith, particularly from FF7R. I've said it before, but I think it would be great to see white mage move in the direction of adopting her identity like how gunbreaker does for Squall and utilize her animations for things like Arcane Ward, Soul Drain, Sorcerous Storm, Lustrous Shield, Planet's Protection, etc. -
03-31-2023, 04:19 AMRenathrasDon't care about SGE. If you want it to be a RDM without the melee, I'm not going to complain. I've already said I don't like Plegma being near-melee range. Heck, I've even outright said - multiple times - SGE having a RDM-like caster rotation that it Kardia heals off of would be fine by me, and possibly even a preferred solution. I'm perfectly fine with that. I won't campaign for it - since I don't care - but if you want to campaign for that, I'd support your campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
And no, CNJ is an elemental mage in FFXIV. WHM is a Holy Mage. Started in ARR with Cure and Holy, and they fully cemented it in ShB with Glare and Dia. SMN's fine, the DoT mage thing never made sense for it. The game SHOULD, however, have a Green Mage for that (or maybe Time Mage...) archetype. Bio, Ruin, Fester, etc never made sense on a Job called "Summoner" anyway, and I think everyone knows it, just a lot of people really liked that playstyle.
Bingo. There are times, Ty, that we're very much alike. (I get you're saying your mind was changed after, but mine wasn't). Priest and Cleric are among my favorite archetypes in games, so "bland and uninteresting" isn't the word I'd use for them. I'd use that for Jobs like DNC.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
In a lore sense, strictly speaking (sorta), WHM hasn't moved away from them, it's perfected them. We now know that Umbral/Light and Astral/Darkness can basically be considered "fundamental" elements. All other "lesser" elements derive from these. Sorta like considering Astral/Umbral as the fundamental blocks upon which everything else is built. Like say Umbral/Astral are protons/neutrons/electrons (or quarks if we want to go that far) and Fire/Earth/etc are molecules built from combining atoms made out of protons/neutrons/electrons. Though with that funky twist there can be "Umbral Fire" (dry heat) or "Astral Water" (tidal waves). But in a cliffnotes version, WHM has perfected their arts to where they're no longer borrowing the Elementals' power but directly tapping into the prime Umbral itself, like the Amdapori did. There are a lot of lore implications there, but since we no longer have Job quests...we'll never have to deal with them, I suppose. XD (Or they'd handwave it as us only taking what we need and doing it responsibly, whichever.)
Being able to pick spell rank animations would be cool, though. Like on RDM, I liked the Verthunder purple squiggly line bolt that we don't have now. I remember watching a video of opening the gates of AQ40 in WoW once. The big event where the giant stompy anubises rampaged across the desert there in Silithis? (I think it was Silithis...) One thing I always thought was cool was you could identify what classes were present (the ranged/caster ones, anyway) by the effects of their spells. Like you could see a Frostbolt and know there was a Frost Mage there. Shadowbolt for Warlock. Lightning Bolt for Shaman, Wrath for Druid, etc etc. Something in my head, I like identifying classes by their casts. It's probably the same thing that has me count DoT debuffs on Hunt Marks to see about how many of each Healer Job are present (and other Jobs that I quickly recognize their debuff icons). And I liked that RDM lightning bolt thing. Kinda miss it since the new one doesn't do that/have a travel animation.
In any case, being able to pick your spell animation - probably same rules as Glam where you can pick any of the lesser ones you have, like you couldn't replace Stone IV with Glare but you could replace Glare with Stone IV - would be neat. All the more reason to add in a level 15 Water as proto-Holy, eh? A simple system wouldn't have a lot of animations, but just letting you pick any level of a spell might work. But it would have to be for direct upgrade paths, probably. For instance, BLM's 1, 3, and 4 spells are all distinct, not upgrades (except Thunder 4, I guess?), unlike Verthunder/Verthunder 3, which are direct upgrades, or the Stone line. SCH Ruin 2 is also not a direct line with the Ruin/Broil line.
I disagree on WHM and floral/Aerith because it WOULD push too far on OP's rule 9 if you decided to make the identity explicitly feminine where no Job currently has a particular gendered aesthetic (though WHM probably comes closest). Not to mention we already have abilities that would do that. For example, Assize could simply upgrade to Sorcerous Storm, Divine Benison to Lustrous Shield, Aquaveil to Arcane Ward, Asylum to Planet's Protection, Misery to Soul Drain. There you go. Though I like the current animations better, and I'm not sure all of the single player FF7R animations would necessarily work with an MMO. For example, Soul Drain (I think it is) is a channeled spell. Look at how Passage of Arms and Collective Unconscious are used "optimally" and you an see why channeled spells are bad ideas at this point in FFXIV design. -
03-31-2023, 07:08 AMForsakenRoeThose 'channeled spells' you give as examples of 'its bad' are 'bad' because channeling them eats into your damage. Presumably (I haven't played ff7r) Soul Drain is a damaging skill. So, if it's 'channeled over X seconds' and does more damage than just using it then immediately clipping it with another GCD, then it will be held out for the duration of the channel. In fact, it's less punishing to use a channel than an actual cast time, because if you have to move 50% of the way into the duration, you lose the whole cast time and have nothing to show for it, but you still got half of the channel's effectiveness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
You want an example of a damaging channel, you've got Flamethrower. But that only gets used in AOE because of tuning. If it was 2000p over it's 10s duration, it'd get used on CD and people would complain about how they have to stand still for so long (but still use it because its the most damage)
And Umbral is not a 'building block', it's a polarity. Fire isn't made of Astral, or Umbral. Fire is like iron (an element of a different kind I guess), and Astral or Umbral are the magnetic polarities it gets pulled towards. Or we could look at it as a lot of different dualities. The game also addresses them as Dark and Light respectively. None of the six elements are made of 'Light', but they can be tilted towards that state. One that might make more sense, especially with Shadowbringers plot and such is, Entropy and Order. Being a practitioner of a school of magic that is literally 'order-aligned magic' would imply a degree of control over what makes reality, reality. Indeed, we saw what pure Order as a force can do, it erases everything and just leaves blank white nothing. But, I think that kind of aesthetic, of someone with that kind of power, is a bit too 'god-modey' to be messing with. Especially when WHM's opposite number, BLM, doesn't use 'Pure Astral' in the same way WHM does with Glare. Astral Fire and Umbral Ice are a thing, yes, but to be WHM-equivalent, BLM would have to shift over to using Xenoglossy in place of Fire4
Imagine if you will, since life itself is inherently entropic to some degree, that to properly represent the 'power' of pure Umbral, of it's stasis inducing effect, a White Mage has the ability to hit someone with a spell, and essentially disable 'life' in that person. They breathe, but oxygen no longer soaks into their blood. Their heart beats, but the blood does not circulate. And they're completely aware of this as they die, because the stasis didn't remove their ability to think, just their ability to live. Terrifying thought, right? But we don't get that represented, partially because morbid, mostly because it's very difficult to convey that concept via gameplay. So, instead we have glittery lights. Which is why (I think) some people preferred the 'down to earth' (heh) nature of the elemental spells. BLM has Fire, Thunder, Ice, and at higher levels, dabbles in 'pure Astral' with Xenoglossy/Foul. WHM is the foil to that, using Earth, Wind, Water, and at higher levels, dabbling in pure Umbral. If they had explained it, rather than just converting all the damage spells to lights, as that the WHM uses Umbral polarity as part of their spells in focused amounts to slow down the life processes of a wounded ally, so they have more time before the wound claims them (if they have been stabbed, using Umbral to slow their heart rate so less blood leaves through the wound buys them more time), that'd have been a completely logical and lorefriendly way to implement the Umbral side of things, I think. Or if they really wanted to make something of the damage side of things be 'Umbral-ized', just do it to the DOT. Dia has been a previous FF White Magic but I don't recall Glare being one. Was it in FF11 or something
4.6k characters ffs not again -
03-31-2023, 09:21 AMty_taurusI don't think Aerith's abilities are inherently any more or less feminine than anything white mage has currently. She of course is a woman, but her animations aren't overtly feminine; in fact, taking a quick look at her abilities, her animations are surprisingly quite neutral--sometimes even leaning toward what could be interpreted as ever so slightly masculine at times. The way she swings her staff is quite wide and very animated, not dainty or delicate. Several of her ability cast animations also have her stand with a more wide-spread stance. The spell effects themselves are quite vibrant and floral, but I don't think that would feel any more out-of-place than some of DNC's animations and effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Also, in regards to the channeling discussion, I think it's "Ray of Judgement" you're thinking off? Similarly to some of gunbreaker's animations, that could be reimagined in some fashion to work without the channel like how Blasting Zone doesn't take like 15 seconds like it does when Squall uses it in FF8, but I'd also be fine just taking some of her tools rather than doing all of them. With Part 2 coming out in the somewhat nearish future, not far off from 7.0, there might also be new options for animations to take from her. -
03-31-2023, 11:42 AMRenathrasAs is normal, disagree on most, but this reminds me of what I feel is honestly the most terrifying death in all of Bleach. When the crazy scientist minded Captain guy gives his "superhuman" potion to one of the Arancaars. It hyperboosts his PERCEPTION, but his body is unable to react or function with the signals his hyper-mind is giving. It makes every second last a thousand years, but he can't move or speak, only think, frozen in time. Miyuri mentions to him how he may not even be able to understand his words at this point, because he'd be hearing each syllable slowly over the course of a (perceived) thousand years. He stabs his sword at the guy who can lift his arm barely at that point, and the sword goes into his upraised palm. Miyuri notes how that must be an eternity of agony as he slowly pushes the sword towards the guy's eyeball. Being able to see it coming for 10s of thousands of years, yet unable to do anything, not even to scream except inside his head for eons.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
...and I remember thinking, that's the single worst possible way to die.
Yeah, best we NOT do that. I prefer big holy burst of spiritual power/magic.
Quite a few flowers, which I think we already have too many of. The way she raises her back arm for Ray of Judgement IS kind of dainty and delicate (though this will be up to individual perception, I suppose), and her Faeries are quite a bit more feminine than even SCH's, being little pink fluttering things shooting the little light balls. I don't like DNC's animations or effects, so...Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Ray of Judgement, yeah. It's funny because I actually like that ability itself, but channeled abilities in FFXIV are bad. So all the theorycrafters and hardcores say, anyway. If we're going to "reimagine" it, why bother with it in the first place?
I do like Sorcerous Storm, though. Have that be an upgraded Assize and make the BLM's jealous. I prefer Asylum's animation to her Arcane Ward, though, too. Soul Drain is basically a reverse Ruin. Not sure that's worth going for, especially since WHM has no similar ability and it would step too close to Energy Drain.
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Anyway, I like most of WHM's current animations fine either way, and I was responding to the OP's 10 points. So...that's that. :) -
03-31-2023, 04:34 PMfulminatingIsn’t he the guy who gave god cancer? A darkest dungeon occultist/mayuri/completely amoral and rather grim in execution healer would be amazing. I’m not necessarily convinced heal strength for gameplay downsides on others would be the direction to go, but certainly having heals with bone-cracking sound effects and wet slaps could be good. Maybe some kind of death protection similar to dying in sophia’s add phase?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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03-31-2023, 05:32 PMSemirhage:rolleyes: It's like you think people who actually know what they're talking about just make things up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
FF14's channeled abilities are bad because they're not worth it. Making an ability channeled in this game is a downside/risk. You lock yourself in place, which is extra bad in a game where you have to move all the time. If you're going to attach a risk like that to something, you need to make it rewarding too. FF14's channeled abilities are all lower potency than just...using a regular GCD that isn't a pain in the butt to use. You fix this by designing it as an intuitive, rewarding ability commensurate with the added risks. -
03-31-2023, 06:34 PMfulminating
Does Chi Ten Jin count as a channelled ability? You're locked in place for the duration and possibly slightly before depending on how much you trust the servers.
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03-31-2023, 08:50 PMAnotherPersonYes, but not in the traditional sense. Ten Chi Jin also doesn't take into effect until you utilize the skills, but it can be seen as a way of channeling due to being locked in place and being unable to use any other skills other than what the "Channeled skill" provides as a result.Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
Another example of channeling is Leylines on BLM, but unlike Ten Chi Jin, Leylines isn't designed as a standalone channel ability. BLM is usually just casting at a 2.5 second GCD (excluding spell speed). After using leylines, Black mages are encouraged to continue "Channeling" their Fire IV rotation at level 60 for a flat 30 seconds within the small range of their circle as long as possible inside the leylines due to the lower cast time (a.k.a. soft-locked into place), but BLM can freely break off and move away from their leylines whenever possible and resume afterwards, giving it flexibility (and at higher levels, you can freely move between your leylines + get instant casts, giving the playstyle a lot more flexibility). BLM takes the whole channeling aspect as its foundational gameplay but on much shorter intervals.
The traditional standalone channeled abilities are skills like AST's Collective Unconscious. Collective Unconscious is not worth channeling over since you just need to snapshot the defensive buff + regen effect right before damage calculation. Any extra damage following that can be healed with Aspected Helios or other oGCD skills. The three cases of channeling Collective Unconscious:
1. To ensure everyone has been snapshotted with the buff. (Maybe 3 seconds longer in channeling for everyone to group up within range)
2. Continuously keep the defensive buff going because there's multiple instances of damage (ex: Euphrosyne 3rd boss phase transition) -- except at that point you have better healing skills at keeping players alive.
3. The supposed instance where you do want to channel is because channeling cost no MP and you're out of MP -- and this is definitely not the case for AST who has 3 potent sources of MP regeneration.
Not to mention, a standalone channeled ability can't do anything else but use that ability -- which often relegates it to a specific job in the toolkit. Again, in AST's case, if you want to channel it -- you can't be using any other skill or move to dodge mechanics, so the only time you channel is when there's a phase transition. Due to how overly abundant our healing toolkits are and how there's another specific "subrole" designed to work with mitigation (barrier healers), that's actually a huge negative to using a healing-channeled skill because there's so many other skills you can use together in the same duration to beat this channeled ability.
In casual play, damage is usually not high enough to warrant channeling Collective Unconscious -- not even mentioning all your other healing abilities, you have more value just using Aspected Helios or spamming Helios right after snapshotting the buff. In high-end play, DPS checks discourage channeling an ability that doesn't do damage if the damage doesn't outright kill you without needing the mitigation for a long period of time, but since you can't use your other healing skills or move either, it's also problematic to keeping people's HP up.
As a result, AST's Collective Unconscious use case is basically treated like Kerachole, just with a lower duration on the mitigation buff. In most cases, it's treated as an additional regen buff if you don't need the mitigation on snapshot to survive. -
03-31-2023, 11:36 PMForsakenRoeSome (myself included) were on board with the idea of putting a new (well, not really, but way less done than the usual) spin on Necromancer as a healer, stealing life energy from enemies, giving it to allies, it makes sense because LB3 is 'you raise your whole team'. Necromancer as a caster would have, imo, been the most boring implementation possible, everyone does 'necromancer as a damage dealer'. 'Oh but the lore, necromancy is super taboo' yeh explain it as 'bad necromancers are perverting the life cycle, and you are part of a special group that brings peace to restless spirits so they can pass on and stop haunting places', problem solved. BLM is taboo, it almost ended the world at one point, but we're allowed to be one. DRK is taboo, but the first thing we do in Ishgard, not 10 minutes after being told 'dont make a scene' is kill 20 knights to stop an attempted rape. I don't see how there's some sort of 'line in the sand' on one specific job and how there's no possible way for the lore to be written that would allow for it to have 'the bad guys' and 'you' as using the same techniques, for different purposes. Hell, you summon voidsent with RPR, that's as taboo as it gets, but it's still a part of the game nowQuote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
Now, I do like Sage from an aesthetic point, I watched some Kamen Rider, Gundam etc. Gameplay's not as 'there' as it could be though
You have to move a lot more, a LOT more, in WOW, but they still manage to have channeled abilities. Mindflay's been a thing since forever, the reason it works is because it's the 'filler' spell, and the comparative power of each tick compared to other things is super low. If we had a healer that had a spell for it's filler that was 'channel a laserbeam at the enemy for 2.5 seconds, dealing 50p per 0.5s (total 250p damage), then when you have to move 1.5s of the way into the spell cast, you lose 2 ticks, for a total of just 100p lost. ATM if I did that on WHM, I lose a whole Glare cast basically, which is 310p. It'd just be a case of tuning it right if they were to do it. Channels can feel very impactful with good tuning though, look at Tranquility for example, massive raidwide healing on a long CD, but the channel feels good (despite locking you out of using other GCDs) because it heals so bloody much compared to anything else in the kitQuote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
No, the reason they don't want to do it for rotational abilities, they said at one point iirc. As far as I'm aware, the reason they never did them is that channeled spells mean you don't press anything while they channel, and they don't like the idea of 'press the button and sit there while the channel completes'. If you had a 5s channel, you'd have half the APM of any other caster as you let the channel complete. And if it were, eg, a 2.5s channel, I assume they'd look at it as 'well then lets just make it a regular cast time so we dont have to do engine work' -
04-01-2023, 01:28 AMfulminating
Could be an interesting way to experiment with downsides/tradeoffs for instant cast heals. You get x hp now but over then next y ticks some amount of it leaks away or whatever. Maybe draining a bit of ally hp and storing as a minion until needed too, kind of similar to excog where the heal's in stasis until conditions are met.
If you want the cynical answer, it's "china's too valuable to risk alienating". Voidsent are not-quite-ghosts enough to be shoved under the rug, but necromancy would be difficult to localise.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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04-01-2023, 04:18 AMForsakenRoeThen call it something different in China. It's not Paladin in all regions, in Japan it's Knight. So have it as Necromancer in EN, 'Necromancer, but written in Katakana' in JP, and something analogous but not directly named as such for China. Occultist or Exorcist or whatever. And also, Diablo's got Necro as a class and that gets sold in China, right? I know about the censorship of skeletons they do over there (Scholomance's skulls in WOW all getting changed to loaves of bread is peak stupid), but there's ways to deal with it that isn't just 'OK we can't do this specific job idea we have because China won't like it'Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
As for design, the idea (in my mind) would be moreso stuff like 'put debuff on enemy, anyone that hits that enemy lifesteals', and there'd be interplay with filling the gauge with damage, then spending that damage on healing skills. It's no different really from if Energy Drain was the generator, and you spent the Flows on healing exclusively, but the aesthetic would be different, because of the class identity, the VFX, etc, giving the 'feel' of 'steal enemy lifeforce and redirect it to allies'. 'Necromancy' is a very wide school of magic, and it is kinda annoying to me that most games just boil it down to 'summon a skellyboner to hit enemies for you'. If you think about it not as 'summon dead stuff' but 'manipulate the energies of life and death' it is vastly more creative room
https://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/w/imag...he_Accused.png
Retweet to scare the CCP -
04-01-2023, 07:04 AMRenathrasUh... o.O (I'm not thinking of any kind of innuendo, I'm just not sure what "wet slaps" in this context would be... like what kind of medical instrument or device makes "wet slaps"...?)Quote:
Originally Posted by fulminating
That said, yeah, Miyuri is one sick dude.
No. It's not like that in any way. But nice try.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
More?
Okay: In order to make it where it's worth using - to the people that say it's bad - they'd have to make the potency really high. Then it couldn't be a channeled ability. If the potency is less than the GCD of Glare for a tick, it's bad to use. This means an ability that ramps up OR an ability that starts high and ramps down (people would just cancel it at the point the down-slope crossed the Glare damage line). That is, if you had an ability that started at 500 potency per sec and decreased every by 50 potency every second for 10 seconds, you'd terminate it early since the last bit would be lower damage than a Glare. On the other hand, if it ramped up, the end point would have to be really high to justify the risk of ending it early. Conversely, if it was level the entire time, every tick would have to have a normalized damage greater than Glare as well. In any other case, it just makes more sense to cast a Glare. And it has to be higher ENOUGH to justify the risk.
That is, if you make it do greater enough damage than Glare, it still has to be significant otherwise you'll say it's not worth the risk. So for example, 310 potency for a 2.5 sec GCD (Glare III) equates to 124 potency per second. This means that if the channeled spell did, say, 125 potency per 1 second (312.5), you'd appraise it as not worth using (the locked in place risk) over Glare or that it's not "rewarding" good use/the risk involved. But at the point where it DOES become a solid increase, it's now likely great enough to widen the gap between the floor and ceiling player wider than the Devs want.
"designing it as an intuitive, rewarding ability commensurate with the added risks", in other words. (Not to mention "intuitive" and "rewarding" are not precisely defined terms here...Misery is intuitive and rewarding to most people, but you seem not to agree.)
One thing I think COULD help is if a channeled ability was your main nuke spell. Like, if it was your go-to "spamnuke" and had no CD on it. Most channeled abilties in MMOs tend to have some CD. The closest ones to not that I can think of are some iterations of Arcane Missiles on WoW Arcane Mage had low recast or procs or something so they were up all the time, and Shadow Priest Mind Flay. But in this case, it IS your spam nuke, and you'd use a different ability instead when you needed to be more mobile. So take SCH, for example. Imagine Broil IV itself was the channeled damage attack. Something like deals 120 damage per second for 3 seconds, 3 sec GCD. Note this normalizes to 300 damage per 2.5 sec, so this is doing more damage than current Broil IV. Then you have Ruin 2 over here on the side as instant cast that does 220 damage. In this sense, Broil IV is the one you're trying to use every 3 seconds as your channeled ability nuke and Ruin 2 is the button you press when you need movement, since it does more damage than Broil IV for anything less than 1.83... seconds of channel. Granted, you might normalize it over 5 sec or something instead, but whatever. So maybe Broil IV would be "120 damage every second for 5 seconds, GCD 5 seconds, channeled, consumes 150 MP per second, action ends on movement".
Point is, it can work that way, but then you'd probably dislike it since it would be swapping one "spamnuke" for another. Though arguably a much higher skill level other - Ruin 2 would now HAVE to be used (other than Biolysis natural refreshes) for oGCD weaving, for example, and you'd be pressing half as many Broil IVs because each would last twice as long.
That said, it would raise the skill ceiling some... even for good players who know where to plant their feet, oGCD optimizing would become tighter. You'd want to maximize every Ruin 2 cast by finding times where you need two oGCDs, like burn an Energy Drain and then pre-cast a Whispering Dawn for damage happening in several seconds using the Ruin 2 window to move to the safe spot and then hard channeling Broil IV once you get there.
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by AnotherPerson
The only traditional sense channeled abilities in the game are, I believe, Passage of Arms, Collective Unconscious, and Flamethrower. Especially Flamethrower because it has some special code where the damage is applied every 1 sec instead of every ~3 sec server tick. I'm not sure how it's unique in that way, but it seems to be. Oh, and Aetherpact is channeled, I guess...by Eos, though, not by the SCH.
I think it may be due to a lot of people thinking of Blood Mage for that. Not in the WoW (lore) sense for Blood Elves, but in the sense of Vanguard, Saga of Heroes. Apparently they had a class that worked as a sort of vampire healer, stealing health (damaging) enemies in various ways and spreading it as heals to either the mage or to their defensive target or party. People don't tend to think of that as Necromancer because it's not a Necromancer in the normal sense (no raising of undead thralls as minions and such, Raise aside).Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Or imagine a WoW Warlock that did less damage but the health drain abilities it had healed party members as well as themselves. Something like that, anyway.
The problem is, FFXIV's combat system is, yet again, too rigid for this to really work. They'd just be regular heals with or Kardia that just had a different aesthetic. If SGE was renamed Blood Mage and Dosis to Drain Life, but worked exactly as it does today, one could argue it was a Blood Mage/vampire healer. But it would mechanically be the same thing.
I think that's fair. It's not for everyone, but I honestly enjoy it. Which is weird because I prefer healing to doing damage, but I think it's because I like the aesthetics and I like how it is brimming with oGCDs so I feel like I'm able to engage with them all the time (unlike SCH where I feel I have to use my AF on ED and am limited only to longer oGCDs). I like being able to actively and continuously shield allies with Karachole, which no other healer can do aside from SCH, and SCHs that do it are "bad" (using AF on Soil instead of ED). It is funny that the "heals by doing damage" healer appeals the most (in this group of us) to the person that likes doing damage the least. Funny how that worked out...Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Agreed with it needing to be the core of the rotation, though, as I said above myself. Tranquility is one of my favorite buttons in MMO history. Did they make it where it's not just your party? I think it was originally raidwide, then they nerfed it to just be your party, which was lame. -
04-01-2023, 10:15 AMfulminatingI was imagining as if it were throwing lumps of flesh together. Not necessarily to the original owner either, just a quick functional fix with whatever’s lying around. It’s almost a shame corpses aren’t persistent or they could be used as a healing resource in dungeons at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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04-01-2023, 10:36 PMForsakenRoeThats... kinda the point. Contrast two announcements at fanfest, one is 'Hey we're doing Necromancer, it's a caster and it's focused on summoning many minions to do chip damage to your enemies' (like 80% of media shows Necro to be). The other is 'Hey, we're doing Necromancer, but in our own twist, we're making it a healer'. Nothing about it being a healer prevents it from summoning minions, but the fact it's not 'damage dealer Necro' sets it apart from the rest of the market. Of course, some people might not be too happy that they're forced to play healer to enjoy Necro, but the same happened with DRK, the same happened with BLU (everyone got screwed on that one), heck when it was first being teased I thought the best role for RDM would be Tank (mix of magic and melee, can equip chainmail in FFTA, etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
For gameplay, I don't see how the engine is too rigid. Consider for example, it has a 123 called Soulsplit, Soulreap, Desecration (or something edgy like those). You use it, and it has the additional effect of 'Fills the Necro-whatever Gauge by X/Y/Z' for each step with the finisher doing more. You can then, once you have 'stolen' enough life energy via damage spells, use it on healing skills. If you know WOW stuff, Holy Paladin has Crusader Strike and Judgement, right? Both generate one Holy Power, and three HP can be spent on essentially Solace or Rapture (their AOE one is a cone though). So generate, say, 20 gauge (so you can pool up to 5 of these 'stolen heals') and have a ST heal and a cone heal (or a circle ala Rapture if you don't want positioning to matter as much)
IDK about calling something 'blood mage' either, it's kinda just... eh, as far as names go. Besides, it'd also imply it works specifically with blood, which some enemies (ghosts, spirits, zombies, skeletons, machina) don't have. Necromancer being able to manipulate life energies would at least explain the first four of those. Creative liberties would be needed to explain other things like machines I guess. But the point of using the name Necro is because it's a job from previous FF games (5remake mainly where it was 'BLU with a twist' basically), I don't recall a 'blood mage' in any games. And again 'Necromancy' has a much broader scope imo for what aesthetics it can do, whereas blood magic, if anything, sounds like a sub-school OF necromancy.
I have heard from little starbirds about forbidden techniques to allow your WHM to have a blood magic aesthetic, which can be found on a distant world called 'Youtube', IF SE let us have quests to unlock 'skillset glamours' eg a Nier themed SGE or an elemental GNB (lightning shot has actual lightning effects, burst strike looks more fiery, etc), or a 'redeemed DRK' that has light themed skills, a dark edgy WHM that uses these 'blood magic' animations I've heard about would be cool
No, it's the whole raid, but if you're in a party (so, dungeons), it's healing per tick is doubled to compensate for the lack of 'extra targets' for it to hit. Same for Evoker's Rewind (Macrocosmos, but without the 'press to apply buff' part, it's just instant), and the Priest one I don't remember the name of (might be Divine Hymn, might be Symbol of Hope, it's one of the two). They only just, this expansion, gave the same treatment to Monk's Revival, can you believe thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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04-02-2023, 03:55 AMLuciaMirain
Ok, I haven't checked the official forums in a long time. We have been trying to recruit for TOP now for a while and we can't get a healer. It is like they all disappeared. We are either stuck with a healer we have to prog previous tier with first or the few healers that are LF a group are HC or have already cleared TOP or at enrage or similar. Where the hell did all the healers go?
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04-02-2023, 08:42 AMIedarusOff to play Paladin/Red Mage/Dancer/Bard/Summoner/Warrior because those jobs have support elements and are actually fun, Paladin especially as I can substitute as a healer if need be and give new healers heart attacks by going suicidal on my pulls in roulettes. Not to mention the 1234 combo, while simple, is actually just enough to force my brain to pay attention rather than fall into a coma doing my 111111111111xinf "rotation."Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciaMirain
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04-02-2023, 08:54 AMZakuyia
everyone talking about this and me sitting in corner missing old astro cards and just wishing they return like how they do them on pvp .-. I can dream tho
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04-02-2023, 09:21 AMMesarthimI quit main healing when shadowbringers launched. Now I primarily dps or tank for high end content (not that I have the time for ultimates). Casual content maybe if I need to push a queue forward for time. I'm just one example.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciaMirain
I do feel it in casual content where tanks usually always had an insta queue, now it seems kind of random. -
04-02-2023, 09:28 AMRenathrasRight...but why call it Nercomancer at that point, if it's a Blood Mage? Why not call it Blood Mage and not run the risk of people MAYBE confusing/misunderstanding/thinking the game is promoting evil acts? It's kind of like going through a minefield when you could just walk to the side of it. Not to mention people have an image of what a Necromancer IS.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Now, you might say, "But what about SGE?"
While it IS true they didn't make SGE what it typically is (in the sense of a high level RDM without the melee), SGE has always been a capable healer and magic user in any FF games it's in. Its lore and abilities, basically a Greek doctor if they had access to magic and more advanced science, is fitting of a lowercase-S sage, a learned scholar. Moreover, unlike Necromancer, there aren't negative connotations with Sage. So it has none of the downsides of doing this.
Not to mention every time they've released a Job as something drastically different than what people expected, it didn't turn out well. DRK as a Tank was kind of iffy, DNC as a Ranged Physical DPS when everyone was expecting a Healer was one of the most negatively responded to things the Devs have ever done.
As for the mechanic - they could literally do the same thing with SGE right now. Just it's a healing gauge of some kind instead of a "stolen life/death magic" gauge. Blood Mage is no worse - how does a Necromancer do damage to a robot/machine enemy? Same kind of problem. How does a BLM do fire damage to a fire elemental instead of healing it? We just kinda allow for some things. They could do the Onimaijin (or whatever the spelling is) and have it be sapping spirit energy/aether and get the same result without having to step on the landmine of Necromancy.
Not a fain of death magic myself. It's a reason I play a healer.
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Also cool on Tranquility. I was thinking they has it party only for a while, which sucked because it was such a cool ability when it was raidwide.
EDIT:
The irony is that everyone says Healers are ONLY fun in high end content (like TOP) and when progging, yet people refusing to do the thing that is the one thing they say is fun to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by LuciaMirain
Though, to be fair, it may be a DC thing and that a lot of people who wanted to rush and do TOP already have groups/already have done so. -
04-02-2023, 11:12 AMSilver-StriderI don't really think fun is the right word for it honestly. High End content requires more interaction with our healing toolkits but whether that interaction can be labeled as "fun" is up for interpretation. What does it matter which of the 20+ healing abilities I decide to blow on the next Raidwide when the end result is the same? There's no procs I gain from using Earthly Star over CO, there's no resources to manage when a singular button press is all it takes to handle the bulk of my sustain, there's no buffs that I have to constantly maintain on the group with the only thing really to maintain being a singular DoT every 30s, so what exactly is "fun" about any of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
If learning the fight is where the fun is, then you don't have to be a healer to learn the fight. Sure, there's healer specific mechanics but those are either heal everyone to full, or the increasingly rare Esuna X Debuff, with very, VERY little else needing to be learned about the fight from a mechanical standpoint. You could argue that you need to learn which CDs you should use for which moments but again, there is very little difference on what heal you use so long as you use a heal.
At the end of the day, whether it be a casual Expert Roulette run or the newest Ultimate Fight, Healers just aren't really worth playing. -
04-02-2023, 12:13 PMRenathrasYeah, but this isn't just true in this case, it's true in all cases. Fun is always up for interpretation. Is DPSing on BLM fun? Interpretation decides that. Is WHM less fun than DNC? Is RDM more fun than WHM? Interpretation decides that, too. Are procs fun? Up to interpretation; some people love them, others hate them. Are DoTs fun? Interpretation. DPS buttons? Interpretation. Healing buttons? Interpretation. Is constantly maintaining buffs on the group fun? Interpretation. Healers "just aren't really worth playing"? DEFINITELY up for interpretation. A great many people seem to think they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
But if people are saying "the only time I like Healers is X...but I refuse to do X", then it kind of causes my Spider Sense to tingle. -
04-02-2023, 04:01 PMSilver-StriderAnd yet here we are discussing why there aren't Healers doing Ultimates. So where is this "Great Many"? For someone so quick to call out everyone else for hyperbole, you seem very keen to do the same in your argument. For how limited the sample data from Ty's survey are, there seems to be an overwhelming number that support my claim on what is fun for a healer. They want more DPS actions, utility/support options that are NOT just another oGCD healing spell or any healing abilities at all for that matter. At least with other MMOs, Healers were given buffs to maintain or resources to manage but FFXIV can't be arsed to even give you that much to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Despite my enjoyment of doing Savage content, I stopped doing it because Healers are dogwater to play. I could go on my MNK and do those fights but I don't get that same level of enjoyment that I did when I was playing my healer back in the day. I'm sure other healers have similar reasons or have already cleared the fights and just have no interest in going back to them as a healer because the fun of learning the fight is gone. Hell, it could just be because we're in a content lull and everyone is just not logging in as often as they used to. Whatever the case may be, however, it's not going to really get any better if nothing is addressed but given Yoshi-P's response in the recent interviews, I am highly doubtful anything is going to change for the better. -
04-02-2023, 04:17 PMty_taurusSomething else worth mentioning is that not all of the responses I receive on the healing end are scored low, and there are many examples of players scoring the healers higher, or at least in the 7/10 vicinity, that are still asking for more attack options. It's a little difficult to read through longer answers here, but if you check out the data tabs, you can also see what individual scorers are asking for more of or less of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
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04-03-2023, 12:39 AMForsakenRoe
Probably because a lot of healers, even ones who want 'healers should heal' style design, would be up for having Purgation from PVP in their kit for example. 'Big laser go ftwooom' is a cool feeling even for someone who 'doesn't want to do damage', like they could attach 'party wide regen' to it like it has in PVP and it'd be considered both a damage and healing tool. Does anyone who 'hates how healers are forced to do damage' have an issue with Pneuma's damage conditional?
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04-03-2023, 04:03 AMDeceptusOr assize? Or Earthly Star / Macrocosmos? Oddly enough, SCH is the only healer role who doesn't have an offensive AoE damage ability outside of their main AoE Spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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04-03-2023, 04:26 AMRenathrasIn simple terms?Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Not playing Ultimate and/or not looking for groups for Ultimate.
Also "great many" isn't hyperbole. The majority of the playerbase are casuals doing casual content, where there's no great shortage of Healers. Tank is still AIN almost all the time outside of 24 mans (which only have 3 Tank slots to fill), where it's often DPS (DPS are also frequently AIN for Trials for whatever reason, but I've noticed Trial ques are almost instant no matter what role I que for them as...)
The long form Reddit survey had a lot of people saying they really wanted more healing requirements from the encounters, not more damage, they would just accept more damage as a band-aid fix, but it wasn't their first choice/desired outcome. Not sure about the majority on Ty's, though a lot said they want more support actions, not more DPS actions.
In fact, what I noticed the most from the long forum Reddit responses were people saying they DID want another DPS ability or two, but wanted them to be situational, not part of a standard rotation or used on CD situation.
The other part of the answer is this:
We're in a content lull. Most people that wanted to do the content (Ultimate, Savage, even Ex5) have already done it to death and are waiting for the next content drop. This isn't just Healers, this is also true of Tanks and DPSers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
The most frequent request for WHM seems to be Aero 3. Purgation as an upgrade to Misery would be hilarious, though. :D I do love hitting Purgation in PvP. Much more than stupid Seraph Strike, anyway, which is just "I want Protect and Cure 3 and have to put up with this button not just being the thing I actually want". I think Seraph is the button I use the least in PvP and the first one I'd change. Honestly I'd tie it's effect to Misery. Get rid of the dumb gap closer - seriously, who thought "healer runs into melee" was a smart idea??Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
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04-03-2023, 05:10 AMSilver-StriderThe long and biased one that you made you mean because those questions are loaded heavily to fit your narrative more than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
In terms of Ty's survey, only AST got the majority of Support votes, whereas SCH, SGE and WHM are more in favor of DPS actions being added, with Support being 2nd. So let me explain metrics here, when 75% of the Healer classes are requesting more DPS actions over support actions, DPS actions are the MAJORITY, not the minority.
Using AIN as a metric for any argument about the current state of the game is laughable. That has been tailored towards Tanks regards of what role is actually in need but whether or not they actually get an instant queue nowadays is much more hit or miss now more than ever.Hell, I'm online right now, with Tank AIN on Expert Roulette and I queued as my PLD and didn't get in for 5 minutes. I switched to my Healer and that popped instantly. It means nothing.Quote:
Tank is still AIN almost all the time outside of 24 mans
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04-03-2023, 05:16 AMSemirhage
This just in: whether your job interacts with the content you do in any meaningful way is fun or not is all down to "interpretation". This is what we call "sophistry". We're playing this thing called a "game". Which is a thing that has interacting with it as one of its properties. We get it. Skill ceilings bad. Interaction bad. Managing anything bad. Medica spam good. Glare spam good. Best design ever.
There's this other thing called a "movie", which doesn't require interaction. -
04-03-2023, 05:39 AMty_taurus
On a small tangent, I've been working on a different Sage rework concept lately that I'm feeling really happy with if anyone wants to take a look at this document. I'm trying to add as much information as possible to what's different and what the logic is behind certain things with highlighting and footnotes, so I hope it's nice and readable. May turn sharing off in the future if I go back and play with things some more, but I think there's a lot of promise in something like this.
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04-03-2023, 07:07 AMNizziHuh? TOP is still on content, it came out this patch. It does not qualify as dead content. If people are having trouble recruiting healers for it, it is for other reasons, not because people have 'done it to death'. Most people attempting TOP still have not cleared.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
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04-03-2023, 11:26 AMRenathrasUh...the first three questions were made by Ty. The only change I made was adding the 4th question so we could see how far people would go in adding more damage rotation, and making the first questions less biased (his original ones were biased) by allowing both answers. Instead of "Do you dislike healers? If you don't hate them, please justify why you don't hate them" with "Do you like/dislike healers? Can you explain your perspective there?", which was me removing bias, not adding bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
This means if you think they were biased, you must think Ty's survey is biased, while you're using it for your data point. The initial iteration (though he may have changed it) REQUIRED you to answer something under "What would you add?", so people who don't really want anything added had to pick something, and a lot picked the top option (add DPS abilities). So it's funny you cite a more biased survey to try and discount a less biased one, and when the core questions of the less biased one were written by the same guy. XD
This is why ad hominem (attack on the person instead of the argument) fallacies are bad...
I should also further note Ty was the one who pointed out - to which I agreed - in the Healer survey thread, no less, that the results of any survey we put here or on Reddit would be against Healers as they are and in favor of more damage abilities since that's what players dissatisfied with the current state of Healers (who are the more likely to frequent message boards to talk/complain about what they dislike) would say. So we already acknowledged from the jump that the results were going to be biased towards "Healers right now are bad/need changing/need more DPS buttons".
Ah, right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver-Strider
So in the same post you accuse me of having a biased survey despite the questions originating from Ty (I only made them neutral by allowing both like/dislike), you attack me for using the only semi-available metric we have to determine whether there are actually shortages or not, with your source that it's wrong being..."Trust me, bro"?
This will literally always be true, yes. Moreover, "interacts with the content you do in any meaningful way"? Define that EXPLICITLY. Because that's probably also down to interpretation based on what the player finds meaningful. It's not "sophistry" (ad hominem fallacy again) to point out that fun is subjective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Semirhage
Seriously, I'll ask you this question:
Do you think fun is NOT subjective?
If I say something that is fun TO ME, you think that it WILL be fun TO EVERYONE ELSE because to suggest it wouldn't be is "sophistry"?
Annnd the rest of your post is the usual hysterical hyperbolic lying about what I even have suggested is good, so I won't bother responding to any of that. I absolutely love (/sarcasm) how you get so many upvotes for demonstrably lying. I didn't realize so many people like lies.
I guess as long as they're lies that agree with them/attack someone they disagree with. I can definitely believe THAT is true. While I do wish people would stop upvoting posts that amount to "personal attack with added outright lies", if that's really the kind of people you want to be, by all means, go for it. It doesn't exactly increase your credibility, though. But hey, you do you.
Seriously, I bet if I made another account, posted that Healers suck and need more DPS abilities, and then outright lied about my positions (attacking the Renathras account), even with COMPLETE lies, you guys would upvote those comments, lol
I meant Savage and older Ultimates.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nizzi
For TOP specifically, you have the issue that people still progging it already have people they're working on it with, so they aren't in the pool of people to recruit much. That is, they're "already taken". And TOP is a few months old. It's current patch, but the people who really REALLY wanted to clear it likely either have already or have a group they've been working with to do so for a few months already (again, not in the recruit pool). -
04-03-2023, 11:48 AMty_taurusCan you cite a job that did not receive any new actions of any kind at the release of one of the past expansions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
EDIT: Also, the reason why I wanted to require answers was specifically so that percentages took into consideration those who did not want xyz. If you could skip that question, then it would seem like the requests for more attack buttons would be even higher. I did it specifically for your benefit actually, so that the desire to see more attack options wasn't being exaggerated by a lack of votes. You voting "other" and not hitting "more attack options" reduces the total percentage of players choosing that option.