FFXIV Job Design Feedback

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I think it's not so much word limit, but how the sheet displays longer responses. Perfect example is #45 for BRD on the 'Ranged answers' sheet, it's so long due to having two 'directions' suggested that it got squished to almost illegibly small font size. Though I suppose by going on the BRD specific sheet, clicking the cell, and reading it's contents via the 'formula bar' at the top is a potential workaround

Also could you edit the OP to say 'please feel free to share this as much as possible' to incentivize it getting propagated around community

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Added that note to the top of the post.

Yeah, there are some that are really long, and the problem if they get too big is that if the cell becomes larger than an average browser window. Google sheets seems to require that an entire cell row or column be on the screen, so it gets very weird if it's too large. I'm not sure what I could do better to make that feedback readable. The feedback notes are also available if you go back to the form and check the results, but I'd like to have a readable version of them on the spreadsheet as well. My mind's drawing a blank on how to do that part better... I could perhaps make the cells much larger and collapse the columns so you can look at one job at a time? I'll experiment a little when I make the next set of feedback forms and spreadsheets, but if anyone has any suggestions, take a screenshot of what might be a better format and share it with me. I can save it for Media Tour time.

On the topic of written responses, though, for anyone that's been readying through them, are there any write-in answers that stood out to you in some way?

The workaround I've been using so far is to make a private copy of the sheet, and then that allows me to adjust the size of the cell/zoom/etc. Alternatively, I also used the 'formula bar' method at other times. It's just potentially an issue for if streamers start reacting to it I think, as it's gonna be very difficult for viewers to read along without opening the sheet themselves. Other people viewing the sheet would have workarounds. The other thing is that since '{role} Answers' sheet has these longform answers for all of the jobs in the role, but the 'individual job' sheet ALSO has these same answers, maybe the former is surplus to requirements? Then again, on the 'individual job (BRD)' sheet, that particular answer is hard to read due to it's sheer length. It's only really 'readable' via the formula box trick:

https://i.gyazo.com/a7863bd6590f8393...d5b0052be1.png

Completely illegible at 100% zoom, and zooming in makes it so the bottom of the cell is off the bottom of the screen (and google sheets sucks and scrolls by one cell per 'scroll interval' instead of a smooth static distance)

https://i.gyazo.com/bed0ca1e090599af...da136d92d0.png

See how the answer gets cut off on the right, the cell needs word wrapping but even then it'll potentially look messy due to linebreaks

https://i.gyazo.com/d6d48a1d96741013...c9191082e3.mp4

It's more legible, but still super long

I guess while it's great to have detail, there's such a thing as 'too much detail' and that specific response managed to cross the line. I don't know if it's necessarily a good 'solution' to tell people to make their response fit into a specific character limit. Maybe it's just us getting hung up on aesthetic stuff that doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things? This specific player clearly feels very strongly about BRD, enough to write that much about it, so I think limiting how they express their feeling about the class to 'say it in X characters or less', something would be lost in the reduction process. Like, I had to reduce what I want for some of the healers because 'what I want' is a lot longer than I put. But while I wanted to summarize, I know there's some detail that was lost in the 'shortening'. If only there was a way to like, click a cell and have it open up in a popup that has it in bigger font.

https://i.gyazo.com/f02e09a5c7a8f9d5...3c47e84b89.png

Like this, but with the cell's contents in a bigger font. Guess the 'Formula Bar' method is the best stopgap solution we have atm. Only other thing that comes to mind is if there was a way to have responses that are over X characters long automatically forwarded to a pastebin, and a link to said pastebin put in the cell in the answer's place. But then who on earth wants to click a link that says 'response too long - click here to open in pastebin', that's a TLDR warning right there

First of all thank you for this post, I truly believe we can get the message with efforts like this.

1. Jobs got streamlined in favor of the 2 minute meta. This homogenization while in theory provides a base to calculate uptime and player damage stagnates creativity.
Making the encounters feel stale because every 120 seconds the players HAVE to have uptime to unload all their skills so their jobs even function properly. Second point of attrition too many jobs have party wide buffs making this type of action bloated and uninspired since we have so many.

In the long term we should revert back to most skills and abilities being 1 minute CDs and jobs having more Personal buffs. Players want to be in control of their rotations and only 1 minutes can allow for the encounters to give the players the opportunity.


2. while I am a Shadowbringers baby, either Heavensward or Stormblood.

3. Sure incentives are great and community engagement are very important. As far as prizes go, maybe glam and housing stuff.

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

he workaround I've been using so far is to make a private copy of the sheet, and then that allows me to adjust the size of the cell/zoom/etc. Alternatively, I also used the 'formula bar' method at other times. It's just potentially an issue for if streamers start reacting to it I think, as it's gonna be very difficult for viewers to read along without opening the sheet themselves. Other people viewing the sheet would have workarounds. The other thing is that since '{role} Answers' sheet has these longform answers for all of the jobs in the role, but the 'individual job' sheet ALSO has these same answers, maybe the former is surplus to requirements? Then again, on the 'individual job (BRD)' sheet, that particular answer is hard to read due to it's sheer length. It's only really 'readable' via the formula box trick:

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I made a little adjustment to the sheets and added a note about it on the OP. Each job is now collapsed into one column, and you should be able to open and close those through the + icon at the top of the page to read through any of the responses. This allowed me to make the written answers column far wider and increased the font size to be more readable.

Scratch that, I couldn't expand the columns when I tested it out as a viewer, so I just made the write-in columns much wider.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Scratch that, I couldn't expand the columns when I tested it out as a viewer, so I just made the write-in columns much wider.

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Well, the main 'problem answer' that was not readable before is now readable, so whatever you did was a success

Also the fact you keep coming to do small updates/fixes like that shows how much more you care about this stuff than SE seems to considering how they've never done anything like this. Seriously, where did they actually get the info about how 'Kaiten is too causing action bloat' or 'healers should have damage:healing skill ratio of 7:1'

edit: I meant healing:damage not damage:healing god could you imagine if we had seven damage skills for every one healing/mit skill that'd be crazy

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Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

[...]Seriously, where did they actually get the info about how 'Kaiten is too causing action bloat' or 'healers should have damage:healing skill ratio of 7:1'

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About healing though, I think I've read some post in healer subforum back in ShB days stating that a certain irl celebrity back in older expac (couldn't remember it was StB or early ShB, take this as a grain of salt) made a comment about how hard it was to play WHM, hence they joked about one of the reason ShB healer got an overhaul was probably because of that.

Don't know about Kaiten though. It's tragic, regardless.

Might I recommend posting this on the ffxivdiscussion subreddit?

It was posted to that reddit on page 3

It was posted to reddit twice actually, once was literally just the link to this thread, and the other is the one on page 3. Neither of those were by me and I feel awkward about reposting it again.

(obnoxious bump to keep thread relevant)

It'd be neat to see what other sites think, though I'm not too fond of r/ffxivdiscussion. No beef or anything, I just don't agree with their general takes. They recognize that something is wrong with job design at least, which is well... not exactly a daring opinion to have anymore.