Parsing unfair but okay?

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Pretty much every static will have someone who parses, that's the reality and it's normal. If a static group is particularly interested in knowing their own metrics in order to improve their own gameplay by finding their struggle points, seeing where they're at and being able to compare to others who're where they wish to be... that's completely fine, and their business. If they want to play with like-minded people, that's also fine. You being a part of a group with a mentality that's fundamentally opposed to your own, is stupid and you don't belong there nor will you have fun there. At that point, you find a group that fits your own mindset... you don't demand groups you wouldn't even enjoy change and cater to what you want - that's self-centered and childish behavior.

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I just want to expand on this a bit, using an example that doesn't involve any gray areas of the TOS.

1. Some groups will want you to have full crafted, max meld gear for raiding on day one, or as close to day one as possible.

2. Others will go "What's the point of wasting that much money on stuff that will quickly be replaced anyways."

People with #2 mentality joining a #1 kind of group will have problems. They'll resent having to spend so much money (or hours on DoH/L). Conversely, the group will resent the joiner for not adequately preparing. And vice-versa, someone with the #1 mentality joining a #2 kind of group won't be happy with the group not taking it seriously enough, or whatever else.

There's many other metrics but in short, it's pretty important to join a group with similar expectations to your own. That can be a no parse group if you wish, they do exist. Or any number of other things that some people consider important to do a certain way, and can cause friction/resentment when those expectations aren't met.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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That's not what parsing does. Parsing doesn't tell you what to do. Parsing just tells you how much damage you did. That's literally it.

You then have the option to use other tools that compare your damage with other people's, and you can then see if you're doing good or bad. There are then other tools that show you what the other people are doing, so that you can maybe use that to improve.

The vast majority of people only use parsing to see if they're on the same level as the other players in their role. So if you're a DPS and the fucking tank ends up doing more damage than you, you at least have the awereness that there's probably something you should be looking into. lol

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

Out of pure curiosity:

What does these statistics have to do with my opinion on gatekeeping?

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A lot, when you're making statements about the morality of something that you potentially could have no firsthand experience with.
With raiding experience, it's more likely that you'd understand exactly why people feel compelled to use logs to make decisions, and your opinion would have a lot more weight.

When you've had 100+ hours wasted by people sneaking into your parties unprepared for its stated goal, you start to feel a little differently towards methods of detecting and mitigating those types of situations before they actually happen, for your own sake and the sake of the other people in the party trying their best.

When I'm recruiting for a static, trialing someone often requires 7 people to find a day and set aside an hour or two of their time. Without the ability to look at logs and filter some candidates efficiently, the amount of inconvenience and wasted man-hours assembling these trials would be IMMENSE. Ultimate recruitment in particular is rough, because there's a large population of strange people who skip straight to ultimate without developing their skillset in lower difficulty content, and frankly have no idea how to play at a high level. I recently watched an Ultimate group recruit a DPS player who consistently dealt less damage than a tank, and they racked up probably 10+ hours of wipes to Living Liquid enrage because of this individual alone. Most of them ended up giving up on the fight; A little bit of 'Gatekeeping' would have significantly reduced the negative outcome of that situation.

I've also had cases where I've actually denied someone from a group for having logs that were too good. That may seem strange, but it's important to understand that disparity in expectations is one of the biggest killers of statics. If I'm putting together a casual/midcore group, I'm going to ask a lot of questions of a top 1% player that is interested in joining. Without logs, it would be a lot more difficult to accurately balance the skill level / expectations of a group.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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Tell me you don't do any high end content without telling me you don't do high end content.

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Originally Posted by Fairecilla

I have. Repeatedly. I've been taking a few screencaps as I'm not sure I'm comfortable with people openly asking for them and have been debating it over with my FC - https://imgur.com/a/aHAqf4l from yesterday for example.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm fine with groups being formed based on logs - but not with it being 'enforced' by elitists on pf.

Actually, what's everyone's thoughts on openly asking for logs in PF? Is it even against TOS?

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Ah that's what that number means? yea i've seen a fair number of those..mostly died down on Spriggan but i did see a fair few at launch. Was wondering what that number meant.

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Originally Posted by Fairecilla

I have. Repeatedly. I've been taking a few screencaps as I'm not sure I'm comfortable with people openly asking for them and have been debating it over with my FC - https://imgur.com/a/aHAqf4l from yesterday for example.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm fine with groups being formed based on logs - but not with it being 'enforced' by elitists on pf.

Actually, what's everyone's thoughts on openly asking for logs in PF? Is it even against TOS?

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So, parties like this generally aren't farm parties or clear parties that a casual player would be interested in joining. They're purpose-made parse parties, where people are attempting to increase their personal-best or compete on the leaderboards.

The reason they're instituting a percentile requirement is because they're looking to try to guarantee a fast kill-time, and need everyone in the party to be pushing high dps in order to accomplish that. It can be encounter dependent, but better kill-times generally add positive skew to your numbers.

In these types of cases it's usually(there are exceptions) not really 'elitism' driving it, because they have a genuine goal in mind that requires a certain level of throughput, and recruiting players below those thresholds would obstruct that goal. If you were putting together an Olympic running team, you probably wouldn't recruit a hobbyist runner that only goes for weekend jogs for example.

Elitism absolutely exists in this game, but is usually more represented by people who constantly look for ways to unreasonably undermine other people in order to elevate themselves, and reframe the genuine accomplishments of others as something beneath them or unimpressive. One instance that sticks in my memory was someone mocking / making fun of a player for having a "low orange" parse. (Orange means you're in the top 5% of runs logged on your job, and is a significant accomplishment for most players).

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Originally Posted by BluexBird

That's not what parsing does. Parsing doesn't tell you what to do. Parsing just tells you how much damage you did. That's literally it.

You then have the option to use other tools that compare your damage with other people's, and you can then see if you're doing good or bad. There are then other tools that show you what the other people are doing, so that you can maybe use that to improve.

The vast majority of people only use parsing to see if they're on the same level as the other players in their role. So if you're a DPS and the fucking tank ends up doing more damage than you, you at least have the awereness that there's probably something you should be looking into. lol

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The last sentence is quite jarring if it were to actually happen.....and I'm not doubting it does.

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

The last sentence is quite jarring if it were to actually happen.....and I'm not doubting it does.

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Oh it does happen, thankfully not in a majority of cases but there are some really bad people you encounter in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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Even i ignore high end content[but i still watch for the toxicity hehe] but ure on a whole other level.

Parsing lets you find the optimal way to play a job, YOU still play the game, YOU still do the rotations and all, you just get more information than what the game provides to see if ure doing good enough.

You can always do the traditional way of trying to kill an EX dummy or something in under a certain amount of minites instead.

What ure suggesting is unrelated to the thread as a whole tbh

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Originally Posted by AbysmalDuck

My last comment then back to lurk mode. If people are so obsessed with parsing, why not just create a bot program to play the game for you then? What is the point in having a program tell you how to improve if you aren't doing the improving yourself?

Maybe I'm just someone of the morality that I want to get better on my own. Growing and learning, not be told by a program that I should've casted F4 when I casted F1. If you need Discord to have someone shouting where to move in a raid, do you really deserve the reward at the end? You didn't learn the fight, you followed a marker.

Good luck!

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bro please you make us lalafells looks bad