Current kits are tuned for this next savage tier and ultimate I believe. They are giving more healing tools to dps and tanks because it's likely there will be more outgoing damage in harder content. heck, I dare you to try running P2 normal right now with 0 healers and tell me how it goes.
Just waiting for square enix to nerf every single bit of healing and support other classes offer in 6.05 because of general populace, followed by inevitable healer mains complaining about P2S being "overtuned"
Tank healing is to high
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12-30-2021, 08:13 AMBravely_Default
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12-30-2021, 08:41 AMLyth
Personally, I prefer buffs that reward player skill. My reasoning is that if anyone can pick up my job and do the exact same thing with minimal practice, then I'm easily replaceable. I don't think that the present setup with tank self-sustain particularly rewards player skill. I don't think that it makes tanks more valuable to play.
If anything, what it does do is devalue tanking. Currently, we're situation in which players are starting to take tank survival as expected and for granted. And that should be worrying. If you had a group of eight players who were capable of playing all three roles equally, you'd probably assign your weakest two players to pick tank, simply because of how safe it's become. And while you could argue that this is not entirely a new development, it is a trend, and it has gotten progressively worse with each expansion after Heavensward. I don't think that identifying a long term issue as a problem makes it any less relevant.
Memes aside, you'll naturally still bring healers into Savage, simply because raidwides and mechanic damage have always been important, even if tank damage is not. All that you've done is decouple tanks from the equation so that they're not all that relevant to the outcome, and thus your lowest priority for skill and gear. Healers and DPS still maintain a mutually interdependent relationship, and it's oddly more satisfying to mitigate raidwides with the various mitigation tools that DPS have at their disposal. The one thing that you may see is a swap to a solo healer if that pushes teams through a dps check, but that'll depend on how tightly it's tuned. But I do note mechanics in P4N itself that were probably specifically included to discourage non-standard comps, so I wouldn't be surprised if there are more.
I'm not overly invested in this either way, but I think that if you consider yourself to be a tank of even average skill, you should want tanking to be dangerous and challenging. You should want mitigation checks with tight timing windows. You should want your healers to be fretting over keeping you alive. And you should want a tank death to unilaterally result in a wipe. Why? Because you want your place in the team to be the deciding factor for the clear. And you want your teammates to feel grateful to have you playing such a clutch role for them.
But by all means, enjoy the feeling of power while it lasts.
And just to address a side discussion from earlier:
I think most of the situations you've described for Oblation can be summarized as: TBN is on cooldown, and every little bit helps, so why not? But I think you'd have to find some very specific HP thresholds at 10% DR for Oblation to be the deciding factor in a player living or dying from a targeted attack.Quote:
Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei
And if we're talking about using the charges to shield two players simultaneously, then really what we're getting at is a situation in which TBN, Reprisal, and all of the other job specific raidwide mitigation tools are on cooldown. And for that matter, Sheltron/Intervention have effectively been operating on a 2 charge system from baseline, and both actions are considerably more useful now. So this isn't even breaking novel ground in terms of flexibility.
I can't argue that Oblation has no value at all. But then again, the original iteration of Shake it Off also had 'value', but there was blood in the streets over that one because it was too niche. Well, that and the fact that WARs demand efficiency in their actions.
Would I trade Oblation for a second charge on TBN and a second storage stack of Dark Arts? Probably. Would I trade Oblation for Arcane Crest? Ye- er, no, get your grubby paws off my actions! Would I trade Oblation for a 10% bubble that generates gauge/Dark Arts when used on a tankbuster and plays a little shattering sound when it breaks? Definitely. I agree that it looks cool. That's pretty much it. -
12-30-2021, 10:56 AMSatarnYou weren't there for SHB or just got short memory? This is exactly the same naive assumption people were making back then, with all the new mitigation and healing skills on both tanks and healers and none of that happened. In fact there's been less damage, especially directed at tanks. Bosses can't even crit on autos anymore since 5.0 and something like Godka in Stormblood had more tank busters in the first 3 minutes (some of them doubles) than majority of the SHB fights in their entire duration. We've been there before, it ain't happening.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
The only change in direction is to make things easier and more forgiving - you can of course argue that it's for the better, but don't delude yourself into thinking it's going the other way. -
12-30-2021, 03:17 PMBravely_Default
1) Auto attack crit rng on bosses was a horrible mechanic that had no place in the game. taking back to back crits putting a tank at 35% hp was something that healers could not account for with planning and in some cases basically lead to tanks dieng when they were mitigating properly to a tank buster + crit auto from full health.
2) When SE removed crit autos from the game they compensated by raising the average damage per auto from the bosses. E4S slaps tanks for 1/4 of their hp every auto attack at around 455 item level. TEA slaps both tanks for over 1/4 their hp every single auto on top of all the mechanics that are going on. many fights follow suit.
3) P2N is already a highlight that there is a ton of raidwide damage going our way, savage version is only going to be worse.
4) Every single fight in SHB had more tank busters than the first 3 minutes in godka besides E9S which was a joke of a fight once your team was on the same page. 2 part fights in general also have far more leeway with being difficult since there is a checkpoint to fall back to.
5) Shadowbringers as a whole had far more annoying mechanics for the PARTY than the entirety of Stormblood barring a few in O8S and O12S and even then average players had far more issues dealing with mechanics like conflag strike, light rampant, and lions in E6S, E8S and E12S respectively
Players as a whole have become relatively more competent and able minded to tackle harder mechanics, but this is still a team game in the end so fights should not be designed to be hell on just one job or another otherwise nobody in their right mind is going to want to play those jobs. lower player base participation = less content of that type.
also, clearing TEA I can tell you that having the tools the tanks had then was ABSOLUTELY something that was required on release. This is obviously ultimate content which is the highest of the high so my viewpoint there might be different to somebody that might only do extreme content. -
12-30-2021, 04:15 PMAFuzzyMu11in
I just can't believe tanks are advocating for their own nerf. This thread is just baffling I won't lie, I feel like it was made by a healer, or these are healers commenting not real tanks. Why would anyone want their class to get nerfed??? I'm a paladin and I LOVE these changes, the healing from sheltron is perfect when my healer doesn't want to wall to wall, and needs to be forced to do it.
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12-30-2021, 04:51 PMQooErQuote:
Originally Posted by Bravely_Default
the party DID take more damage in stormblood raids than in shadowbringer ones. In some cases not even relative damage, but absolute.
neo exdeath https://www.fflogs.com/reports/cnbGm...e=damage-taken
total damage taken: 8.69m
ifrit and garuda savage https://www.fflogs.com/reports/KBQ1g...e=damage-taken
total damage taken: 8.55m
TEA is the exception rather than the rule. shadowbringers savages were woefully undertuned for healers. im really hoping pandemonium savage proves me wrong, but im absolutely not holding my breath for higher healing requirements when 8/13 of the fights last expansion were pathetic. -
12-30-2021, 06:31 PMBarretOblivion
Healers complaining tanks have too much self sustain now... likely as a result of every Tank dying to auto attacks because the healer decided to ignore healing the tank with a GCD heal when they need too and then yelling at a tank for not using cooldowns when they have none available. Now some of the power to help keep a tank topped up is in our hands every once in a while. Good. Let healers DPS more and focus on mechanics. Heal us during the tankbusters, let us focus on the AAs.
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12-30-2021, 06:58 PMaodhan_ofinnegainSorry but using a 2 minute shorter kill time and a second floor boss which typically has a lower skill floor requirement versus a final floor boss, that had almagast of all things on top of everything else, typically final floors are a bit of a challenge especially for healers, and this doesn't factor in defense being relatively equivalent for the fight on Neo Exdeath versus ifrit and garuda.Quote:
Originally Posted by QooEr
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12-30-2021, 07:37 PMWhyAmIHeresome can see the forest for trees, others cannot.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFuzzyMu11in
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12-30-2021, 07:39 PMKalaam
Some people want the game to be enjoyable for all roles and not solo everything without efforts indeed.
Why do some people think there is a rivalry between tanks healers and dps ? It's a *team* game.