Just wanted to add that when tanking ALOT of mobs as an PLD using DPS stance is next to pointless as PLD has literally no AoE at all, CoS is only one and even that is pretty LoL compared to what WAR and DRK has. So by staying in ShO allows healer to go deeps mode instead while you rotate CD's and pop some self-heals, its more efficient than trying to be wannabe AoE deeps when you dont have proper tools for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoHawk
Are there more tanks playing now?
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03-13-2016, 05:16 PMSynestra
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03-13-2016, 05:36 PMZadocfishAh. So most of this "Tanks need to DPS" discussion applies primarily to WAR and DRK. I feel a little dumb now.Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoHawk
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03-13-2016, 06:13 PMArtemizThe weasel words are strong with this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
I'll form my rebuttal from the perspective of the tank, you might understand it better then.
If I only pull 3 mobs instead of 9, it's the fault of the BLM for not doing 3 times more AoE damage than his simple rotation allows.
If I can't push a high hate ceiling then it's the BLM's fault for having to hold back or die even though he used QS and can't use RS.
If I take my sweet ass time locking down a boss then it's the BLM's fault for not "adapting on the fly" and taking hate with his opener.
If I pull ranged mobs but don't gather them properly then it's the BLM's fault for not adapting and creating a bigger AoE impact radius.
If I tank a mob like I'm in a Benny Hill sketch then it's the melee's fault for missing positionals even though they're trying their best to do so.
If as an off tank I don't pick up the adds then it's the BLM's fault for not "adapting" and getting smeared across the arena floor when he tries to kill them.
Sounds rather silly when I put it like that, doesn't it? The better that tank, the better the DPS can be because tanking on BLM doesn't increase my DPS and after I've used QS and manawall/ward there isn't much else I can do other than less damage. -
03-13-2016, 06:23 PMSpookyGhostIt applies to PLD as well, but in a different way. WAR and DRK excel at self healing as well as maximizing AOE DPS output in trash pulls, whereas PLD's main focus there is mitigating damage and letting the healer/DPS largely do all the legwork. For bosses, though, things are far more even. PLD has access to a passive block in the form of a shield, which actually makes it the safest tank out of tank stance (it's RNG to proc a block, but as you level you'll unlock Bulwark (60%+ blockrate for a duration) and Sheltron (100% single block). You also have access to various CDs - as an example, if there's no high incoming damage in the fight then being out of tank stance and using Rampart will essentially put you in tank stance for it's duration while still having the damage from being out of tank stance (both are 20% incoming damage reduction, but Shield Oath will penalize your own damage).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zadocfish
Don't think of maximizing DPS as a tank as a necessity - first and foremost you want to make sure you can do all the tank things you need to do (mitigate, hold aggro, don't cleave your party, etc), but once you've sorted all that out and it's running like clockwork in your mind you can start trying to figure out where you can squeeze in extra damage while not costing your healer enough to make your own damage increase worthless. This can be as simple as using Royal Authority or Goring Blade instead of Rage of Halone (costing yourself a tiny bit of aggro for a DPS increase) or as drastic as taking off tank stance, popping defensive CDs, saving FoF for when you're out of tank stance, etc. It's a song and dance, you don't necessarily need to participate in it but it does add some extra fun challenge to the role if you start to get bored. -
03-13-2016, 07:30 PMLyth
I wonder: if there are so many different notions out there on what a tank's primary role is, how is a novice to MMOs supposed to be incentivized to pick up and play a tanking class? DPS and Healers do pretty much what it says on the tin. There's a clear objective and skill progression. How do you develop your skill as a tank? How do you differentiate between a competent tank and an excellent one?
I don't think that you can ever really separate dps out from tanking. We use axes and greatswords as weapons. Historically, in Final Fantasy games, the characters who used these weapons were equally as adept at dishing out punishment as they were at taking it. You don't expect Rosa to outdamage Cecil. So why is the bar now set so low for us in Stone, Sea, Sky?
While the enmity system is there to account for the discrepancy between our dps and that of a pure damage dealing class, we weren't intended to just be RP fighting the boss while the rest of the raid takes it out, either. Part of the art of tanking comes from being to balance your mitigation and enmity needs against your ability to push out more dps. A tank needs to be a genuine threat, not just a numerical one.
De-emphasizing tank dps probably has the biggest implication for the OT role. Most tank roles in fights tend to be fairly asymmetric. If you're going to be stuck on the back of the boss for 9 minutes waiting for your one minute of glory, what are you really expected to contribute outside of dps? Maintain buffs? Granted, there are some fights which are exceptionally fun to OT on, but this is really hit or miss. A DPS is always a DPS. A healer is always a healer. But you have to wait for the right moment in the fight for your opportunity to actually tank. Having all the HP in the world has no value if there's nothing out there that actually wants to hit you.
It's good that tank gear is more standardized. It's good that our HP bars look more visually like tanks. But I'm not sure if either of these really address the main problems in tanking at the moment. -
03-13-2016, 11:03 PMIndigoHawk
I feel like you're concerned about something that didn't happen. Tanks still do good damage.
Tank damage and sustain with str meta made tanks too independent. Instead of maximizing team dps, tanks maximized their own dps. To fix this, enemy damage was increased, tank health was increased, and tank dps was cut down slightly to encourage tanks to focus more on their primary role of positioning and controlling enemies and taking and mitigating damage for the team.
There's no confusion over the role, just a design problem that was fixed.
As for offtanks, their dps was not hit that hard, especially long term with str melded onto accessories. In some fights OT is basically another dps, but in many fights, offtank handles adds, soaks damage mechanics, and tank swaps. It's rarely sitting around 9 minutes waiting for 1 minute of glory.
Tanking is in better shape for 3.2, with more emphasis on tanking and a slightly higher skill cap for tanks who maximize dps. -
03-14-2016, 02:20 AMLyth
The problem is in the central concept. Healers heal. DPS do damage. Both of these are self-explanatory. About the simplest explanation of tanking that I can manage is:
1) Obtain aggro quickly. Retain it. Transfer it smoothly when required.
2) Control the rate of incoming damage through gear and defensive abilities.
3) Position mobs quickly and smoothly. Minimize movement.
4) Maximize your damage output.
Even if you had agreement on what the tenets of tanking are, you'll have a lot of difficulty getting people to agree on how they should be prioritized. The "strength meta" wasn't really about your choice of jewellery. It's about the mindset that you should actively maximize your dps while meeting the requirements of your tanking responsibilities.
The fact that the question of "Do tanks need to dps?" is even on the table in this thread for a class that uses swords as a primary weapon is a reflection of how unintuitive the design of this all is. Here's your foam sword and suit of impervious armor. Go distract that dragon while we beat him up. It's the years of MMO experience which indoctrinate us into thinking that this is "normal".
It's not a question of how much damage you do. It's a question of how much damage you do relative to the rest of the raid. In fights where the OT is essentially another dps, then limit break considerations aside, why not take another dps if you can get away with it? You can spend an entire raid session on OT some days without getting a chance to do something tank-like. If we're not consistently seeing raid content designed for two tanks, then how is an OT supposed to "focus more on their primary role of positioning and controlling enemies and taking and mitigating damage for the team?"
I'm not suggesting that things have taken a change for the worse, because for the most part, it feels about the same as it did before. But you won't produce a shift towards mitigation focused tanking without having equally engaging mechanics and skill-based rewards to match. -
03-14-2016, 11:37 AMJim_Berry
I forgot all about this post lol... Let me go back and re-read the comments.
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03-14-2016, 11:45 AMJim_BerryNo!Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterBoogaloo
I did tank because I was NIN tank in FFXI (while being a COR main). Aside of that, I was always told my dps as NIN and BRD stunk. And because I didn't dps as WHM, I had to turn to tank. I leveled both PLD and WAR at that time (before Heavensward). I actually enjoyed tanking without no one saying I suck at my job.
However, that began to change in 3.2, since a PLD/DRK combo would allow the DRK to MT while I OT due to me having OT utility. I still don't know how to "dps" as OT, so I just said forget it and continued on with NIN. -
03-14-2016, 03:42 PMIndigoHawkAgain, you're concerned about something that didn't happen and isn't consistent with the state of tanks in FFXIV. Tanks still do good dps.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
People always ask, "Do I need to perform my role or can I just dps?" Healers and tanks both ask this question. If fights do not require much healing or tanking, then people will dps instead. The str meta was tanks realizing that that the actual tanking requirements were low and tanks could instead self sustain and dps without worrying much about tanking. So it's been fixed a bit.
Have you tanked the midas dungeons? The offtank helps with adds, tank swaps, and soaks damage. As people overgear content, offtanks can usually be replaced with dps, but the fights are designed for an offtank to tank, not just dps.