Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

Blank is unloading a shot gun shell right into the target stomach. Head graze is a bloody head shot. So is suppressing fire. So? All this means is that CC is likely going to actually matter instead of just being boring rotation filler. As a BRD/MCH/NIN main, I'm happy for the opportunity!

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wen u wipe the party because the brd/mch/whatever used their silence at the beginning of the fight and couldnt silence mind blast (im honestly kinda excited for the new raids given the changes we got for that sorta stuff. even the situational stuff like aoe provoke and breakga makes me think that theyre gonna add interesting mechanics)

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

some nice sh*t.

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Now we cooking with oil!! Finally some data to interpret !!
WHM
Cure II potency is 700. Also in row 49 you have a typo, your cure potency went down with largesse.

I know both Benediction and Divine Benison have no "potency", but what is your normalization practice for those? For example your Benny has normalized at 1300; but 1300 potency heal couldn't heal a tank from 1% to 100%. Similar with DB it's effect scales with HP and not potency so it depends who you're using it on.

Lets take a tank at 40k ehp (ilv270 tank stance), and we're healing with a ilv 270 set of gear. current 400 potency Cure = 5500 hp. 40k/5.5= 7.27 Cures; 7.27*400 potency= 2908 effective potency (healing 40k ehp). note: benedictions effective potency scales up the lower the healer's ilv.

Likewise with DB, 15% of 40k is 6k. Using current Cure at ilv270 to normalize, we get 6k/5.5k= 1.091 *Cure = 1.091*400 potency= 436 potency (I know this is a bit off topic but look how weak a 15% shield is on a tank with 40k!! HP ....but we crying about losing a 10% shield used on a nominal party member with half the max HP...:mad:)

SCH
You got 2 crit Adlo's out of 9 attempts? And one of them happened to be with largesse active ;);). Since you're using Eos then you have to include Fey illumination (extremely potent skill b/c it buffs everybody's heals not just the sch's) . Largesse last for 40 sec in a 3min window; if you're using a 2.5 GCD that's only 16 GCDs under the effect of largesse; but you have 14 phy + 4 adlo under the effect of largesse?

AST
I think u have to revisit these numbers. Aspect benefic is 200 potency heals, then based on your sect either gives 18 sec of 140 potency (diurnal), or it erects a shield equal to 300% of the heal (Noc). So Diurnal should be (200 + 6*140)*1.1 =1144 (which you have this one right). Noc should be (200+3*200)*1.1= 880; but you got 920.
Also the large+Syn on Noc Aspect Benefic. Synastry provide 40% of pure heals, so it won't influence the potency of the shield erected. You'll get the 10% from sect, 20% from largesse, those two will influence the potency of the shield, but the 40% from Synastry will be calculated after the 30%
buff (not 30+40% but 1.3*.4) (and the animation suggests the same if go and test it out right now). This would make Aspect Benefic while under noc and using largesse and synastry have a total potency of (200+ 3*200)*1.3 +0.4*(1.3*200) = 1144 potency.

(I'm out of time...)

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Originally Posted by Acidblood

While 50% CD reductions in certain situations would be nice, I'm really not looking forward to a rotation of Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Assize > Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Tetra > Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Asylum > Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Bene > Cure II > Cure II > Cure II > Assize > ...

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Because, it's not a good rotation...(all depend of the difficulty of the fight, of course).

if you want to be optimal, you need to get absolutely 30 sec reduction on Assize because it's the best spell (heal, damages, mp recovery) which profite from lilies.
For the others, it will help if the fight is really tough, but not necessary if the fight is simple.

As I said before, 3x cure II (if possible with no overheal) + Assize every 30 sec. This 4 spells are not cast inevitably in a row.
You are free to cast other spells (Aero, Stone, etc) during the other secondes.

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

I wasn't aware you had already played the expansion. Please, do tell me how it's worked? One would think that because they removed damage from all CC, it would've had far greater importance. Was the Omega raid that awesome? Oh! And what about Ivalice?? Please tell me there were viera NPCs!

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Let's not be silly. The use of CC won't change all that much. There's not going to suddenly be some dire use for Fluid Aura now that was sooo important they needed to strip the potency from it.

It was just a way for SE to decrease the number of buttons needed to be pressed in order to reach higher DPS. It's a shame though. We asked for more water spells, and SE takes the only one we had away. They sure are listening!

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Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH

So many people act like WHM is the only job that lost damaging oGCDs. It's absolutely boggling to me that people have to be reminded several dozen times...

To recap, ALL DAMAGING CC HAS LOST ITS DAMAGE COMPONENT.

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I can't even muster the energy to act surprised by this unsolicited and disproportionate outburst.

At the risk of taking your response seriously for a moment, that's not where I was going with my comment. If Repose is the most useless PvE skill in the WHM toolbox, Fluid Aura is right behind it since no one wants knockback outside of the extremely rare helpful application (e.g. T9 golem adds back in the day). Removing the damage from that skill was a headscratching move since that was almost its only value.

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Originally Posted by Ceasaria

As I said before, 3x cure II (if possible with no overheal) + Assize every 30 sec.

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Unless we have newer information, the 3 Lilies = 50% CD reduction is only a PvP feature. I don't believe we know yet what changes they plan for the PvE system.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

Unless we have newer information, the 3 Lilies = 50% CD reduction is only a PvP feature. I don't believe we know yet what changes they plan for the PvE system.

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We should in a couple of days though. Yoshi might tell us in the live letter on Tuesday and it should definitely be in the patch notes on Thursday.

Its about time they stop living in the past and give whm something unique. I am done with the pure healer era.It has been going on long enough and I am sure whm mains are craving for more.It is just not satisfying enough to play whm.Whm could use a little more spice.Hopefully changes will occur in future patches if people are not happy with the lilly mechanic.They should at least make it more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

I'm still seeing damage and CC on existing things like shield bash/spineshatter dive and blizzard 2/tri-bind/freeze. It's only the new role abilities that seem to not have damage. Fluid Aura isn't a new role ability.

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While her point was too blanketed, 4/5 of those that kept their CC and damage that you mentioned are GCD spells and weapon skills with MP/TP costs. If you look at the OGCD ones very few survived, Spineshatter Dive being one such example.

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Originally Posted by QooEr

wen u wipe the party because the brd/mch/whatever used their silence at the beginning of the fight and couldnt silence mind blast (im honestly kinda excited for the new raids given the changes we got for that sorta stuff. even the situational stuff like aoe provoke and breakga makes me think that theyre gonna add interesting mechanics)

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Im in hopeful agreement here. We forced this change on ourselves by using them just for damage preventing their use as CC. And if they no longer have to account for them being thrown away, they could be put into more mechanics. Which is also why I think a lot of OGCD CC got moved to role actions, so the odds of missing components in any comp go down. For example there is no longer a tank without and OGCD Stun and Silence possible. If a group fails due to lack of it, it can be rectified by those available. So while it's possible these changes will amount to nothing, I'm at least waiting to see if they take the opportunity to make more interesting encounters because of it.

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Originally Posted by javid

Now we cooking with oil!! Finally some data to interpret !!
WHM
Cure II potency is 700. Also in row 49 you have a typo, your cure potency went down with largesse.

I know both Benediction and Divine Benison have no "potency", but what is your normalization practice for those? For example your Benny has normalized at 1300; but 1300 potency heal couldn't heal a tank from 1% to 100%. Similar with DB it's effect scales with HP and not potency so it depends who you're using it on.

Lets take a tank at 40k ehp (ilv270 tank stance), and we're healing with a ilv 270 set of gear. current 400 potency Cure = 5500 hp. 40k/5.5= 7.27 Cures; 7.27*400 potency= 2908 effective potency (healing 40k ehp). note: benedictions effective potency scales up the lower the healer's ilv.

Likewise with DB, 15% of 40k is 6k. Using current Cure at ilv270 to normalize, we get 6k/5.5k= 1.091 *Cure = 1.091*400 potency= 436 potency (I know this is a bit off topic but look how weak a 15% shield is on a tank with 40k!! HP ....but we crying about losing a 10% shield used on a nominal party member with half the max HP...:mad:)

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Before getting into the math, I think it's important to note that I don't recommend calculating potencies towards eHP. If a cure heals for 4K but because of Shield Oath we state the cure actually heals for 5K eHP, it's a visual misnomer and opens things up to misinterpretation. Likewise, perceived eHP values change based on what CDs are being used. IE - Rampart also decreases damage by 20% so thus one could interpret this as "any healing done would be increased by 25%" which isn't the case all the time. We don't want these inconsistencies when we're trying to accurately gauge how the kits interact.

So, my Benediction Math and Divine Benison math will be adjusted to be more suitable but here's what I'm going for right now. The base tank HP is approximately 33K in full i270 gear.

For Benediction I made the assumption that you would be using it when the tank has approximately 25% HP remaining. 33,000 x 0.75 = 24,750 HP recovered. If a 400 potency cure is approximately 5.5K we math out (24,750 / 5,500)*400 = 1,800 potency in a single Benediction. I'll update the sheet to reflect this.

We can do a similar adjustment for Divine Benison. 33,000 x 0.15 = 4,950 and then (4,950/5,500)*400 = 360 potency. I'll make the adjustment here as well.

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Originally Posted by javid

SCH
You got 2 crit Adlo's out of 9 attempts? And one of them happened to be with largesse active ;);). Since you're using Eos then you have to include Fey illumination (extremely potent skill b/c it buffs everybody's heals not just the sch's) . Largesse last for 40 sec in a 3min window; if you're using a 2.5 GCD that's only 16 GCDs under the effect of largesse; but you have 14 phy + 4 adlo under the effect of largesse?

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I put two Crits just because. I didn't have a fair way to distribute it for the time so I just chalked that one up to "RNG" at the time. I'll make the adjustment in the following:

Under the effect of Largesse, the SCH will use Adlo at the beginning and end of the duration for maximum effect, so two per Largesse. Let's just say you can get one crit out of all the Adlo's in the simulation (not a far cry when we should probably have approximately 10% crit) and I'll chalk that up while Largesse is active.

I've adjusted the number of Physick's under Langreese to reflect the change since it would indeed be 16 GCDs while under the effect of Langresse.

In terms of Fey Illumination, since it affects both healers the total potency increase would be in similar magnitude for both healers and for 8-mans, not something you want to gauge in a SCH-only-vacuum - so it's been omitted for those reasons.

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Originally Posted by javid

AST
I think u have to revisit these numbers. Aspect benefic is 200 potency heals, then based on your sect either gives 18 sec of 140 potency (diurnal), or it erects a shield equal to 300% of the heal (Noc). So Diurnal should be (200 + 6*140)*1.1 =1144 (which you have this one right). Noc should be (200+3*200)*1.1= 880; but you got 920.
Also the large+Syn on Noc Aspect Benefic. Synastry provide 40% of pure heals, so it won't influence the potency of the shield erected. You'll get the 10% from sect, 20% from largesse, those two will influence the potency of the shield, but the 40% from Synastry will be calculated after the 30%
buff (not 30+40% but 1.3*.4) (and the animation suggests the same if go and test it out right now). This would make Aspect Benefic while under noc and using largesse and synastry have a total potency of (200+ 3*200)*1.3 +0.4*(1.3*200) = 1144 potency.

(I'm out of time...)

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I didn't apply Largesse to Aspected Benefic in Nocturnal so I did add that. I actually didn't apply Largesse appropriately for the Aspected Benefic cast in Dirunal either so I corrected as well.

Nocturnal Sect's Japanese tooltips gives 15% healing which is why the math would be (200+3*200)*1.15 = 920 instead of 880. You can find the tooltips here. It would make sense that Nocturnal and Diurnal would have separate healing bonuses under the assumption that if they both were the same, why not just give the potency on the skills the direct boost? Since S-E didn't do that it would logically follow that the sects would have different bonuses (admittedly, S-E isn't always a logical bunch either).

In terms of the rest you'd need to split up Nocturnal with Syn and Largesse up, you'd need to split into three parts. The base heal, the shield, and the Syn. I combined the base heal and shield as a 4x multiplier since (x + 3x) = 4x and separated the Syn term. Once you include the 15% boost instead of 10% boost you'll end up with 1,214 total potency.

Once all is said and done the total changes amount to is:

D.AST
Total Potency: 57,686
HoT / oGCD Potency: 20,112
MP Consumed: 46,560

N.AST
Total Potency: 57,222
HoT / oGCD Potency: 8,500
MP Consumed: 46,560

SCH
Total Potency: 55,314
HoT / oGCD Potency: 22,374
MP Consumed: 54,000

WHM
Total Potency: 53,730
HoT / oGCD Potency: 21,010
MP Consumed: 40,560

[edit] As an FYI, Largesse and Nocturnal bonuses will be calculated as multiplicative and not additive. So Noturnal's 15% + Largeese 20% would be 38% total bonus, not 35%. You can do similar testing currently with Synestry and Nocturnal since Synestry still retains the potency bonus ATM.