Roleplay/Partyfinder Discrepancies & Policy Enforcement by GM's

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Originally Posted by van_arn

File the report and let the gm decide if you have grounds to file the report. Especially if you think you’ve been subject to harassment.

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Not to mention, minors can't legally consent, so it throws the consent thing out the window.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

I guess you'll have to refer to the ToS:

"3.3 Profanity and Offensive Language. You may not use profanity or any language that a reasonable person would find offensive. The Game is for players aged 13 and older. You agree to behave accordingly."

Sexual Language can be considered Offensive Language in many situations, especially in the context of which you're supposed to behave in a game where there may be those as young as 13 playing.
Combined with the "These are prohibited in all places where expressions can be made, including chat (including Quick Chat and Emote), markers, comments and names." part of the support desk, and the fact that players have to change their names if they're too sexual, despite not harassing a specific person, I think it still holds up.

You know what? I'll make a ticket asking about it and see if I get a GM response on the issue. Something along the lines of "If Sexually explicit material is said in chats, despite not being targeted at a particular person, is it still a violation of ToS?" because this probably should be clarified.

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I should have known a bad-faith option would be presented here. This reads as trying to box those of us arguing for clarification into a specific situation, whereas others like JanVanding have raised critical points of consented venues (private chats where consent between the involved parties is clear, etc.)

EDIT: A number of times, things are rather quick to go towards minors. Seems there's a lot of people with an axe to grind, seeing as there's been suggestions of grooming (a serious accusation that can be considered harassment if unfounded), open attacks against unspecific "degeneracy", and even one user later claiming sarcasm over unclear posts that suggest LGBT+ groups should go next because of - again - allegations of child grooming. Not necessarily from you, mind, but scattered amongst this whole thread.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

File the report and let the gm decide if you have grounds to file the report. Especially if you think you’ve been subject to harassment.

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Don't quote reply me, I have zero interest in talking to you.

You're here to stir and cause trouble and therefore I withdraw consent for you addressing me in any further way.

That's how consent works.

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Originally Posted by ZackZero

I should have known a bad-faith option would be presented here. This reads as trying to box those of us arguing for clarification into a specific situation, whereas others like JanVanding have raised critical points of consented venues (private chats where consent between the involved parties is clear, etc.)

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But in an online game, where minors play, and you can't easily determine if someone is actually the age they say they are, and that minors cannot legally consent, then doesn't that throw the "consent between involved parties" thing get thrown out the window a bit here?

I'm fine with ERP if you have substantial grounds for knowing what the age of a person is, in that you two can actually legally be consenting, but engaging in ERP in 18+ player houses that was advertised publicly, you can't really tell just who is coming through the door, and have to take them at their word.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

But in an online game, where minors play, and you can't easily determine if someone is actually the age they say they are, and that minors cannot legally consent, then doesn't that throw the "consent between involved parties" thing get thrown out the window a bit here?

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Nevermind, I think we're done here. The "think of the children"ing is too common in this thread, enough to argue that the mention itself is being used to sink peoples' arguments without merit, as a suggestion that they're advocating for unopposed interaction with minors.

Sticking to EDITs because I appear to be capped, but... it continues. A lot of insinuation that there's exploitation of minors and/or grooming, and it's going unchecked.

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

But in an online game, where minors play, and you can't easily determine if someone is actually the age they say they are, and that minors cannot legally consent, then doesn't that throw the "consent between involved parties" thing get thrown out the window a bit here?

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No, because said age of consent is different detemined by where you love. Just because a small portion of the playerbase isnt "of age" that doesnt mean consent is thus thrown out as a whole if im understanding you correctly. (Pardon my grammar)

But this is a global game, so you have to take into account that people may be from areas with higher or lower ages on consent.
The age of consent is 16 in New Zealand, but I'd be uncomfortable with people from countries where the age of consent is 18 sending explicit material to those who are 16 (or potentially 13, as that's the youngest age that a person may play this game at without violating ToS)

And it's not just about "think of the children! Protect the children!", perhaps there could be a lawsuit against FFXIV or an adult if there's complaints filed about explicit material sent to a minor without the adult person realizing. It doesn't just protect the minor, it also protects the adult and the company from facing legal action.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

So to sum up my thoughts on it all now we're all the way to page 104 (might be 105 but at the time of writing it's 104)

The GM Misinterpretation is now clear and it's why people have had strikes removed, but I have to say this as someone that has been a long time member of the RP community.

18+ Brothel runners, you were warned in October to stop advertising "explicit wordings" in the PF by Senior GMs when they did the big RMT sting which involved many venues getting visited and given a verbal warning to clean up their language in the PF, you were practically taunting and challenging them to come "Do something about it" and so they did.

I have many friends in the RP community, some come from that side of things and it has to be said, Due Diligence it's time to incorporate it, some venues always have and always will, those of you that aren't you know who you are, clean up your act.

I walked into an 18+ Establishment after this situation just to gauge what the reaction to what has occurred has been, as soon as I zoned into the building I was immediately propositioned, this was the first time I've ever been in that establishment so there was no way I could have been age verified before they start asking if I want to "buy some time with someone", I won't name names, I won't name the establishment either, but this is what is giving people wood to pile on the fire.

I'm of the belief that all facets of RP should absolutely exist, but brothel runners? You really really need to get yourselves sorted out because you're encouraging situations like this from happening again and again.

Innocent RPers got caught in the crossfire this time, start showing due diligence because who knows how heavy handed it'll come next time.

Stop playing with fire, fire hot.

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Out of curiosity... How are role-players supposed to tell the brothels not to post? Like do you think they would listen?

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Originally Posted by DreadCrow

Out of curiosity... How are role-players supposed to tell the brothels not to post? Like do you think they would listen?

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Of course not. There's too much gil to be had, it a high-stakes game. There are millions getting passed around, probably billions over a week(end)? All this is in PF due to that arms race. They want the clientele.

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Originally Posted by ZackZero

I should have known a bad-faith option would be presented here. This reads as trying to box those of us arguing for clarification into a specific situation, whereas others like JanVanding have raised critical points of consented venues (private chats where consent between the involved parties is clear, etc.)

EDIT: A number of times, things are rather quick to go towards minors. Seems there's a lot of people with an axe to grind, seeing as there's been suggestions of grooming (a serious accusation that can be considered harassment if unfounded), open attacks against unspecific "degeneracy", and even one user later claiming sarcasm over unclear posts that suggest LGBT+ groups should go next because of - again - allegations of child grooming. Not necessarily from you, mind, but scattered amongst this whole thread.

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That is because the game has been stated to be considerate with that age range in mind and to act accordingly. Advertising this in a public space like the Party Finder creates a situation in which people not of the appropriate age of maturity can get involved in such activities, with many of them not even understanding the gravity of the decision they're making or the implication as such. Be it obscene or not. None of this is acting in accordance with that in mind.

I wouldn't even care if there were a section specifically for 18+ on the PF which states and highlights the implications in no uncertain terms of opening up such a section which by default wouldn't appear within the default category of the PF. However, there isn't, so yes people will be inclined to morally grandstand and say you should not advertise mature content on a public space such as the PF which minors will have access to such advertisements, and unsolicited. no less

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Don't quote reply me, I have zero interest in talking to you.

You're here to stir and cause trouble and therefore I withdraw consent for you addressing me in any further way.

That's how consent works.

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This is probably the most petulant thing I’ve seen written today.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

The important word here is "Consent"

If you turn off that filter, walk into a Brothel and go into a private chamber, you no longer have grounds to bring up any harassment report because you fully consented every step of the way.

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Eh, consent really doesn't go that way. Consent can be withdrawn at any time. Like, if a player went to a brothel, went into a private room, started... But then, for whatever reason, decided they didn't want to do this anymore... Well, the player would to withdraw. If the other player didn't respect what they did... Well, I certainly think they should be reported. 'cause the moment you say you don't want to do something, that's where consent ends.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Don't quote reply me, I have zero interest in talking to you.

You're here to stir and cause trouble and therefore I withdraw consent for you addressing me in any further way.

That's how consent works.

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He can address you regardless. That's how forum posting works.

To be honest its anytging new ans not to be mean or anything

But i think the non Japanese servers gms are overzealot foolish types.. And we need some better reasonable ones both on there and this forum ... Because it not anything new tey do that stuff to people since realm reborn..

I remember back on my first character before heavenward i made a joke in liksa about ill give cookies for some yaoi and got reported for rmt.. Guy coulda looked at it for one secind and knew it was a joke yet ya..


The issue with the fool gms we have on ours is they act just because a report is sent and dont think about rather its reasonable or not before oulling someone in.

Players that are reported over non reasonable things should be banned ..

There needs to be people in gm postions that kniw the difference between a harmless action someone just being a crybaby thst uses report just cuz there feeling hurt or cuz they dont like it and then something thst is harmful.
I dont think this is an issue with the rule themself but non Japanese staff is kinda in the sjw countrys and are overstricked.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

I've seen a lot of "but the minors" post.

How many people under the age of 18 even play this game? We have an older playerbase. Young people do not play MMos anymore this isn't 2008-2014. A good 99% of people who play XIV are over 18

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When I started I was under 18, and so was a friend group that I met in ff14 so, there's a lot more then you think lmao.

Reminder there is literal pole dancing going on in Eulmore.

How about, it's not JUST about the kids? I can probably speak for many others here, most people don't want to see these ads in party finder. It's off-putting. A person should never open their PF and see ads for adult "content", especially in a 13+ game, no matter what kind of mental gymnastics one might use to justify this. Regardless of whether it's the "other" tab or not. SE needs to make better social features, to have a better curated game. The only people who should see these kind of ads are people looking for it, or things like it.

I was 12 when I first started playing MMOs, so I don't think it's too far-fetched for a 13 year old to play this game.

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Originally Posted by DreadCrow

Out of curiosity... How are role-players supposed to tell the brothels not to post? Like do you think they would listen?

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The roleplaying community on Aether at least is extremely closely knit so I can say these discussions are absolutely taking place and the adult venue Runners are mostly taking actions to ensure age verification is in place and that PF advertising is kept clean.

There will always be venues that ignore the advice and still break the TOS, they are in the minority and if they happen to get busted, they will only have themselves to blame.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

I've seen a lot of "but the minors" post.

How many people under the age of 18 even play this game? We have an older playerbase. Young people do not play MMos anymore this isn't 2008-2014. A good 99% of people who play XIV are over 18

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What a dumpster fire of a take. I was 13 when I started playing MMOs, and the youngest person in my FC was 16 when she started playing. So yeah, minors definitely play a Final Fantasy online game in 2021.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

How about, it's not JUST about the kids? I can probably speak for many others here, most people don't want to see these ads in party finder. It's off-putting. A person should never open their PF and see ads for adult content, especially in a 18+ game, no matter what kind of mental gymnastics one might use to justify this. Regardless of whether it's the "other" tab or not. SE needs to make better social features, to have a better curated game. The only people who should see these kind of ads are people looking for it, or things like it.

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Except when I open the PF I don't see those. The first thing I see is how I can pay a dude $200 to take my account into TEA. 5 Times.

I have to scroll, and I mean SCROLL, to even get into the "other" section of the PF. If these were being placed until the roulette tab so you'd see it on opening, you'd have a point, but they aren't, they're out of the way.

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Originally Posted by poptarts12

What a dumpster fire of a take. I was 13 when I started playing MMOs, and the youngest person in my FC was 16 when she started playing. So yeah, minors definitely play a Final Fantasy online game in 2021.

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Wow you are 13 and your parents let you on the forums?

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

Reminder there is literal pole dancing going on in Eulmore.

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That isn't particularly explicit...and is by no means the equivalent of a player well into adulthood seeking out players who are underage to engage in all manner of adult activities that go far beyond pole dancing.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Wow you are 13 and your parents let you on the forums?

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Huh, they said they were 13 when they started, not that they are 13 right now....

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Wow you are 13 and your parents let you on the forums?

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I suppose the reading comprehension for ERP must be extremely miniscule.

y'all flagging this stuff as 18+ is literally trying to keep minors out. like. i don't. understand. how labeling something as 18+ is bad. that's what this is about. we're flagging things as 18+, having mature content, etc, so minors know this is not a space for them.

rolling back around to adults would sometimes just like to talk to adults. i would like to sit at the adult's table at thanksgiving so i don't have to hear the kids talking about whatever kids talk about, i would like to talk to adults.

plenty of non-rp fcs are 18+ because they don't want minors in the space. it's totally okay to not want minors in a space.

saying "erpers want to erp with children" is some sever mental gymnastics. not saying none of them do, but those few are disgusting and really don't stand for the rest of us that just want to sit in a tavern venue and talk in character and not feel the need to censor any 'adult talk,' be it sexual or violent or what have you.

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

Wow you are 13 and your parents let you on the forums?

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Nah, says they started in 2015.
Which would make them 18 now, and suddenly all that time they spent sneaking into brothels can turn onto them so they want them gone cuz now their fun's over.

See, I can to mental gymnastics too. Doesn't mean they're correct or have any basis, right? U-Unless...

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Originally Posted by van_arn

This is probably the most petulant thing I’ve seen written today.

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I asked you to not reply to me, you did so anyway, you are now breaking TOS on harassment.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

He can address you regardless. That's how forum posting works.

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In case you're unfamiliar with consent. I have asked him to stop, that is denial of consent and it was spelled out in the clearest terms possible.

He can reply to me but to do so break the terms of service under Harassment policy.

When someone says no, it means no.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

In case you're unfamiliar with consent. I have asked him to stop, that is denial of consent and it was spelled out in the clearest terms possible.

He can reply to me but to do so break the terms of service under Harassment policy.

When someone says no, it means no.

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In case you're unfamiliar with how the forum works, there's an ignore feature on it. You'd have to come up with quite a tortured definition of "harassment" to construe responding to a post as such. Want to test it? Try report him.

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Originally Posted by Lauront

In case you're unfamiliar with how the forum works, there's an ignore feature on it.

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There's also a blacklist feature in the game.

There's also (NOT PROMOTING) ways with third party to hide those in particular from the PF.

Isn't that weird?

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

I've seen a lot of "but the minors" post.

How many people under the age of 18 even play this game? We have an older playerbase. Young people do not play MMos anymore this isn't 2008-2014. A good 99% of people who play XIV are over 18

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While I think a lot of "think of the children" posts are disingenuous, this really isn't the way to argue that. And as someone who ran a Dungeons & Dragons chat and was a part of the storyteller team of a World of Darkness chat, that had rules that required you to be 18+ to make a character and play there... And I know for a fact there were minors there.

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Originally Posted by Sarevok_Thordin

Reminder there is literal pole dancing going on in Eulmore.

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And presented in a way that is still PG-13.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

The roleplaying community on Aether at least is extremely closely knit so I can say these discussions are absolutely taking place and the adult venue Runners are mostly taking actions to ensure age verification is in place and that PF advertising is kept clean.

There will always be venues that ignore the advice and still break the TOS, they are in the minority and if they happen to get busted, they will only have themselves to blame.

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On Primal, we don't really have that unity, sadly. Not for the lack of trying, either. It's more that some of the brothels don't really seem to care about role-playing as a whole.

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Originally Posted by kinglyonheart

y'all flagging this stuff as 18+ is literally trying to keep minors out. like. i don't. understand. how labeling something as 18+ is bad. that's what this is about. we're flagging things as 18+, having mature content, etc, so minors know this is not a space for them.

rolling back around to adults would sometimes just like to talk to adults. i would like to sit at the adult's table at thanksgiving so i don't have to hear the kids talking about whatever kids talk about, i would like to talk to adults.

plenty of non-rp fcs are 18+ because they don't want minors in the space. it's totally okay to not want minors in a space.

saying "erpers want to erp with children" is some sever mental gymnastics. not saying none of them do, but those few are disgusting and really don't stand for the rest of us that just want to sit in a tavern venue and talk in character and not feel the need to censor any 'adult talk,' be it sexual or violent or what have you.

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To be fair, I think a lot of the 18+ venues don't really need that tag. For one, if a minor wants to play in an 18+ venue, they will absolutely lie about their age. And I'm not sure if you have suggestive dancing/dialogue or drinking at a venue you really need it... Since you know, unless you're getting more explicit than the game gets (which I think sometimes pushes the envelope of what is allowed in a T-rated game), it's not really needed.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

There's also a blacklist feature in the game.

There's also (NOT PROMOTING) ways with third party to hide those in particular from the PF.

Isn't that weird?

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I'm not sure how that is even relevant, considering that people who are expressing concern about such matters relating to in-game content are referring to minors coming across sexual content. Whereas if you don't want someone to respond to you on the forum, there is a very simple solution: ignoring them.

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Originally Posted by DreadCrow

On Primal, we don't really have that unity, sadly. Not for the lack of trying, either. It's more that some of the brothels don't really seem to care about role-playing as a whole.

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this is by no means an attack on all of them, but it would not surprise me if more than one of the in-game brothels is just someone having decided it was a great way to get gil quickly without caring about any rp aspect to it or how much work actually goes into making one, even in virtual space

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Originally Posted by Izanagi_Fiaresu

I was 18 at a strip club drinking beers because they didnt bother to check my ID when I bought a beer.

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Exactly. Know a lot of people who had fake IDs in college. Most that happened was the cop or bouncer took the ID and then just sent them on their way. Had only one spend a night in Jail on request of his parents when the cop contacted his parents.

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Originally Posted by SnowVix

this is by no means an attack on all of them, but it would not surprise me if more than one of the in-game brothels is just someone having decided it was a great way to get gil quickly without caring about any rp aspect to it or how much work actually goes into making one, even in virtual space

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Based on what I've been told, there's at least one brothel on Primal that's exactly that. They saw the Kotaku article, decided it was really funny and a great way to make gil, so they switched the focus of their FC... Even alienating old members who weren't comfortable. Although I've talked briefly to the person who runs at least one... They tend to be actually pretty chill. (And I don't think I've seen public ads for their service, either.)

I doubt SE particularly cares about consequences to their players, so much as how it affects the image of their game.

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Originally Posted by poptarts12

Starting to suspect they they don't care if the other person is a minor or not. Truly reprehensible.

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Oh please, stop that fake holier than thou attitude. Most people who loudly scream "but the minors!!!!" do it mostly to join the witch hunt, while they can comfortably hide behind questionable double standards. And no, I don't partake in any form of RP.

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Originally Posted by DreadCrow

Based on what I've been told, there's at least one brothel on Primal that's exactly that. They saw the Kotaku article, decided it was really funny and a great way to make gil, so they switched the focus of their FC... Even alienating old members who weren't comfortable. Although I've talked briefly to the person who runs at least one... They tend to be actually pretty chill. (And I don't think I've seen public ads for their service, either.)

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yeah, i know a few players who run and work in the rp brothels and they're really chill people. not the type of service i'd make use of myself, but the work that goes into them is amazing

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Originally Posted by NessaWyvern

So you're saying that people should be completely fine with people sending lewd shit to minors by accident or otherwise? In an online game that clearly has minors in it, and a ToS that says for players to behave as if minors play the game?

My parents never watched me play Runescape when I was 12 (I am a victim of child abuse and neglect), so there's probably kids on here without parental supervision, not every kid has caring parents.

As an adult, I wouldn't want other adults sending lewd stuff to people who could potentially be minors, whether it's the parents or minors fault or not.

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If they lie about there age then its not the other person problem lol so