Black Mage

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Well, while they didn't go into details they did said they received words of complaints about BLM

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if it's due to the (towards us silent) devs/admins here, giving Yoshi our feedback..., a big Thanks towards them for sending our complaints (!)

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Originally Posted by Lina_Slayer

I cannot help but fell afraid they will fail at giving us BLM what we really need.

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same here, still worring till its implemented.. (and fear it might help at start of 4.2, than be obsolete soon after for the rest till 4.3....)

and still a bit sad, that there's no small/fast fix before 4.2.. (probably for the long wait, Yoshi gester of humblness was the "being shamed" thingy...)

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Why Bring the Black Mage when the Summoner does it all better and the Machinist is just as good with better party boosts?

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because maximum in everything isn't the goal for everyone thats why. this is not about balance - this is about elite and casual and if casuals wanna raid with Blm (or another unlucky cls) they should get the chance to do so; and the chance is given by SE but not by our own community - this "why should someone take x over y" is a problem caused by players not by the devs. I know the least of you want to hear that but well.... there lies some truth in it no matter what you may say now.

sometimes self-reflection gonna hurt : /

The devs are way too slow to fix obvious problems (DRK and BLM being the main ones, but MNK and SAM will need some love soon as well), BLM has been bad for months now and it just started being locked out of PF recently, if the devs had given the urgency the issue deserved it would not be a problem so yeah it is their fault, by the way only doing balance on big patches is just a bad idea overall.

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Originally Posted by Neela

this "why should someone take x over y" is a problem caused by players not by the devs

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When a game has an issue like this you have to either embrace it and work around it, or work on ways to prevent of it to happen. Simply ignoring it exists only hurts the game. So saying this problem shouldn't be taken care because it's not a dev induced problem isn't very good.

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

When a game has an issue like this you have to either embrace it and work around it, or work on ways to prevent of it to happen. Simply ignoring it exists only hurts the game. So saying this problem shouldn't be taken care because it's not a dev induced problem isn't very good.

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so you want the same hot fix smn got - and be blamed to be overpowered again just because the comm can't wait for a proper solution? well beeing up again would change the view right...? Smn is still fucking broken even though its the strongest dd atm. but top dps doesn't meant that all changes for us were good - infact most of them were bullshit and have a "lets please the com" or even "we don't know how to fix it" touch on it. If you want the same for Blm I won't discuss this any longer.... just tell me ^^

noone said they should ignore it but overrushing like they did with us is not the answer...

SMN fixes followed SE's philosophy for the expansion, making the jobs easier to play and less punishing. A big complaing at Stormblood release over SMN was that the rotation was too strict, punishing and by no means intuitive. 4.1 changes covered a bit of that, players that were expected to manipulate MP perfectly to deal good damage now can just swing by spamming the same ruin Spell. Ruin IV procs had to be ignored for WW and making it into R2 instead let them not be. Another issue SMN had was that sometimes players couldn't understandd that R2 to avoid clipping on DWT which was your "R3 spam window" was good, so they made every R3 instant to cover that up. Altought this have changed SMN gameplay probably forever, they covered really big issues SMN have had, some that even came from their HW iteration. On top of that, SMN is not broken. Its just the only caster that comes closer to Physical Raged DPS. MCH is still stronger.

So, if I want them to do the same thing they did to SMN? Sure, adressing design problems BLM had for a long time would not only make the job more enjoyable to play but break the stigma the class brings anytime they join a PF party. I am a BLM player, and I hate to see BLMs joining my party simply because its a job with a lot of space to screw up and die or do bad damage. This is the whole point of this thread: show that BLM has actually noithing of desirable in it, not even what the devs had claimed it to have. And why this is the case.

When a job has absolutely no desirable trait for the team members on a game about team work... that is a big problem. While all BLM needs to be more used on high level play are simple potency buffs, QoL changes would make players that can't be bothered to play it because of their turret playstyle enjoy it more and pug parties being more open to it. Which funny enough, is exactly what happened to SMN. They got more damage and started being used in high level play by the time DoTs were buffed, then QoL solidified it as a fun job for a big part of the community.

A formal response to this thread or some of the other threads regarding BLM would be very well-welcomed, or if they made a thread of their own with their own set of issues they are addressing. The fact that they acknowledge that it needs help is good, but it should be painfully obvious, so I'm not sure that it makes me "feel tingly", to be blunt. I would be much more curious into their insight for what they will actually DO with the job because it desperately needs attention.


By the way, MUCH to my dismay, the more I play SMN in dungeons the more I realize that not only is BLM's single target damage in desperate need of help, its AoE damage is as well. To recap what I said some 20 pages back, SMN is about burst damage, AoE included, and BLM is about "sustained" damage. Thing is, sustained damage is useless if everything is already dead within the "burst". Please please please devs, read what we are saying.

The fun part u discribe is just the fact that u can easily put out decent dmg as casual player like SAM on SB release that’s all. Aetherflow, deathpenalty, Egi response, missing m2 are still messed up. Using Addle for dps and no control over Entons movent are indeed things I call broken - u are easy to please if u would be satisfied with similar changes to Blm. So got any other arguments than raw dps? I’m curious really...

I don't need to provide any. I just explained all I can and you simply ignored and complained of unrelated stuff.

Like i thought you don’t have any and btw I haven’t complained I just asked if Blms want unthoughtful fixes like we got. End of story.

In my opinion, an "unthoughtful" fix would be a flat potency increase with no acknowledgement of movement and buff/burst windows. The job should have a punishment for movement, but right now that punishment is RIDICULOUSLY massive. Call be a broken record, but these things really need to be addressed.

For ease, I'll post my concise list of changes I'd like to see again:

-Fire IV/Blizzard IV back to 280 potency
-Thunder III timer extended to 30 seconds
-Application of Thunder refreshes Astral/Umbral timer
-Thundercloud/Firestarter proc timers extended to 30 seconds
-Fire/Blizzard made instant cast under Enhanced Enochian (lv 70)
-Foul potency increase to 700 diminishing (currently 650 diminishing), and DOUBLE potency when hitting only one target (OR, instead of double potency, using Enochian grants a Polyglot no matter where the timer is)
-Flare damage diminishing should be reworked so it is slightly stronger than it is currently. maybe 10 20 30 40 50+ instead of 15 30 45 60 75+.
-Aetherial Manipulation reduced to 15s (or even 10)
-Convert reduced to 60 seconds, OR remains 180s, grants full MP bar, refreshes Astral Fire, grants three Umbral Hearts, grants Firestarter, grants Thundercloud.
-Sharpcast no longer works with Scathe (please for the love of god)


That's all stuff they could do VERY easily. Here are a few more things:


Freeze overhaul (suggested by Eloah):
-Lv. 35 Freeze, potency 150, now a targeted spell like Fire II or Flare, immediately grants a full stack of Umbral Ice
-Lv. 50 Sub-Zero, when your MP drops to zero (after Flare) grants a Sub-Zero proc (30s duration), allowing for the next Freeze to be cast for no MP (still immediately grants full stack of Umbral Ice)
-Lv. 68 Enhanced Umbral Heart, Successful use of a Sub-Zero proc grants three Umbral Hearts

Lv. 60 Thundersting: When Thundercloud is applied to a target, any remaining DoT potency is added to the initial Thundercloud hit OR any Thunder DoT becomes additive up to 60 seconds, so refreshing Thunder now becomes adding onto the already ticking timer.

Lv. 68 Thunderstorm: Automatically grants Thundercloud after a certain amount of damage is dealt to a target with a Thunder DoT (or maybe a certain number of GCDs or specifically Fire IVs)
Lv. 68 Firestorm: Automatically grants Firestarter with successful consumption of three Umbral Hearts in succession (so not if Flare uses all three at the same time)
Lv. 68 Enhanced Umbral Heart: For each Umbral Heart consumed by a fire spell, +5% damage to the initial hit of the spell (so +15% damage to a Flare that uses all 3).

Lv. 70 Enhanced Enochian: For every Firestarter/Thundercloud proc obtained (not used, just obtained) adds 5 seconds to the Polyglot timer.




All of this is stuff they could do if they decide they DON'T want to give BLM "utility". Here's a list of what I might do utility wise:

-Blizzard IV: +10% magic vulnerability up for ~45 seconds.
-Aetherial Surge: 180s recast buff that removes a placed Ley Lines and spreads it out to the entire party as a speed buff for the remaining duration of the consumed Ley Lines.
-Shadowpact: 180s recast Raise off-gcd that gives pre-raise or damage increase after use or tether blah blah, refer to the Raise thread about this suggestion
-Aetherial Force: All players within range of a BLM under the effect of Enhanced Enochian receive passive +2% speed (or crit or direct hit or whatever) OR a BLM under Enhanced Enochian receives a damage bonus of +2% for every party member within range of it.
-Mana Channeling: 120s recast tether to one target that restores target's MP over 5-8 seconds.
-Aetherial Syphon: 120s Tethers one player giving 10%/5% damage increase (like Dragon Sight), drains target's MP by 10% every tick and gives BLM 10% MP back every server tick (including during Astral Fire). Expires when the target's MP reaches zero (or after 20s duration)
-Meltdown (suggestion made by someone a while back): When Fire IV hits a target, target takes increased damage +1%, stackable up to 3%. Effect is removed when target is hit with an Ice spell.


....Sorry my list is no longer concise. The top list I can definitely see them doing, the middle list would be great, and the bottom list is just for brainstorming. The bottom line is that unless they significantly buff BLM's damage BOTH single target and AoE, it will STILL be smarter to take SMN overall. To justify the significant damage loss while doing mechanics, BLM should be the strongest damage in the game, above even SAM.

I wouldn't expect more than simple potency increases looking at their track record. We will be lucky if they decide to do something about blizzard iv.

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Originally Posted by Bernkastelx

I wouldn't expect more than simple potency increases looking at their track record. We will be lucky if they decide to do something about blizzard iv.

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I think it was Remedi that pointed out that there IS a precedent of "overhaul" changes on skills mid-expansion, they cited Shield Swipe specifically in 2.4, which is true. I think there are a few other examples, I suppose you could call the Tri-Bind overhaul pretty big (and Shake It Off).

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Originally Posted by Llugen

not only is BLM's single target damage in desperate need of help, its AoE damage is as well. To recap what I said some 20 pages back, SMN is about burst damage, AoE included, and BLM is about "sustained" damage. Thing is, sustained damage is useless if everything is already dead within the "burst". Please please please devs, read what we are saying.

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yes, this too^

blm aoe is sometimes a pain, you precast a lot to get it ready, but cant hold on to the precasts (the window of full burst is limited)... and where blm sustained aoe could be good, there are no fights at ever need sustained aoe... (maybe fractal hard will be the only xD)

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Originally Posted by Llugen

-Fire IV/Blizzard IV back to 280 potency

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I think that making them 2.5 secs cast would be a better choice than a potency increase (that's also one of the reason why I would prefer for enochian to upgrade f1 and b1 to f4 and b4)


(also make scathe have a canche to proc thundercloud and/or firestarter instead of the actual proc and maybe cost 0 MP)

Personally, I'm ready to give up Scathe. Like I said in the other thread, Scathe doesn't need to be used at level 70, we are powerful enough to warrant not needing it anymore. I wouldn't be opposed to it costing zero MP or having a chance to proc Thundercloud/Firestarter, but that just adds to RNG factor and it would be much less stress on the Astral/Umbral timer if they just made Fire/Blizzard instant cast under Enhanced Enochian (and then you can STILL get your Firestarter proc if you're lucky).

Nothing really confirmed but players have noticed BLM spells to have something close to 2s base cast on Yoshida's Neo Exdeath replay. Might also be a replay bug. But we have this new small info to discuss around.

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Originally Posted by Shiroe

yes, this too^

blm aoe is sometimes a pain, you precast a lot to get it ready, but cant hold on to the precasts (the window of full burst is limited)... and where blm sustained aoe could be good, there are no fights at ever need sustained aoe... (maybe fractal hard will be the only xD)

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First as a side note, the idea that a DOT heavy Pet class would be 'burst damage' sort of hurts my old school mmo brain.
Second, AE damage is basically useless since the things you're trying to hit that you actually care about killing only have a single target. If you could target multiple spots on a primal and AE all of them at once then AE might have a use.
Third, the very last thing the devs want is to add MORE AoE damage to the game. Players are already going out of their way to break encounters (albeit 'trash' encounters) using AE damage abilities, the entire idea of a 'mega pull' is based on this. And I can't imagine a single developer or content designer watches a tank go for a wall to wall pull and thinks "Yeah, that's exactly what I envisioned happening!"

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Originally Posted by Llugen

In my opinion, an "unthoughtful" fix would be a flat potency increase with no acknowledgement of movement and buff/burst windows. The job should have a punishment for movement, but right now that punishment is RIDICULOUSLY massive. Call be a broken record, but these things really need to be addressed.

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As usual Llugen, your ideas to limit the double/triple/quadruple punishment of movment are well thought out and meticulously planned.

So I am going to respond with an idea that is ill conceived and off the top of my head. You know, for traditions sake....

What if you got rid of the Astral/Umbral timer?

I won't disagree with your statement because it's true but the "logic" of it is bad. Whether or not the devs "intend" for wall to wall pulls is irrelevant. If it is possible to pull from wall to wall, you bet your bottom dollar that players are going to do it. With this in mind, either devs need to make walls or they need to adjust BLM's aoe damage, because if they don't, players will just take SMN. It's pretty much that simple.

SMN's burst damage comes mostly from aetherflow granting bane and two painflares, then of course deathflare and shadowflare and the pet aoes, and then the Tri-Binds that you can squeeze into DWT. It is a "DoT class" in that the bursts are reliant on the DoTs being up (Fester, Bane, and in turn successful landing of those things grants DWT/Bahamut), but the damage on the job no longer comes mostly from the DoTs.


Also I mean yeah sure, if you want to remove the timer that could be neat, but then there's no "punishment" to the foul timer requiring Astral/Umbral if it's just indefinite. But I'm game, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Personally, I'm ready to give up Scathe. Like I said in the other thread, Scathe doesn't need to be used at level 70, we are powerful enough to warrant not needing it anymore. I wouldn't be opposed to it costing zero MP or having a chance to proc Thundercloud/Firestarter, but that just adds to RNG factor and it would be much less stress on the Astral/Umbral timer if they just made Fire/Blizzard instant cast under Enhanced Enochian (and then you can STILL get your Firestarter proc if you're lucky).

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I'd rather give up on fire 1 and blizzard 1 than scathe, they had their purpose and now we are moving away and the need to refresh AF with fire1 is, while interesting on paper, a liability to us, scathe on the other hand could be improved to be more effective

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Originally Posted by zuzu-bq

Nothing really confirmed but players have noticed BLM spells to have something close to 2s base cast on Yoshida's Neo Exdeath replay. Might also be a replay bug. But we have this new small info to discuss around.

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If that's true that's very interesting actually

edit: outside of ley lines cast time of F4 was around 1.84 secs

edit: also haste card was no longer on him either

edit3: same on foul so probably cast timers were gutted on all spells (well at least on the single target ones

edit4: though we don't know what food he's using

But Fire I especially can grant a Firestarter. Fire + Firestarer is higher total potency than one Fire IV, by the way. Besides, we currently use Fire in the rotation/opener to upkeep Astral, which is really frustrating (another reason why my Firestorm suggestion would be nice, giving a free Firestarter after using three Umbral Hearts would mean 3x Fire IV Firestarter 4x Fire IV for each phase).


Scathe is so meh, and Fire is already still used, is my point. Let's just streamline the latter and drop the former.

With then idea I'm saying that F4 would become an upgrade of F1 under enochian, which means F4 would proc Firestarter

Would that also imply that Fire IV would refresh Astral? Interesting.

I think they like their timer system with Fire IV NOT refreshing but Fire III and Fire I can. Furthermore I feel like it might feel weird to spam Fire IV and get Firestarter procs then not want to use them because they are lower potency than just using another Fire IV (unless they were "stored" for movement, or Firestarter was given a potency increase over hardcast Fire III). Lastly, since there would no longer be a timer juggle (which would be a relief in a sense) it would inadvertently make the class more boring to play, which I think should be avoided.


Honest to goodness, the class is in such a bad spot right now that if I was a developer I would probably just overtune it for 4.2 and then tweak it down if necessary for 4.21 if it is discovered that it really DID become so powerful that people are just running quad BLM. See also "raw damage cannot be more valuable than well-synergized support damage".

Actually, if they change the passive skill for scathe that gives 20% chance for double potency to that, it gets an elemental attribute depending on your current stance would solve some of the problems. Additionally scathe would then grant either 1 astral fire or 1 umbral ice depending on your stance. If you are in no stance then it deals neutral damage like it does now. to avoid making fire 1 obsolete, it would use the same MP as fire 1. However, since its instant cast its potency would be lower. I think a potency change in scathe from 100 to 160 would be enough. They can make foul work similarly except that it doesn't grant any AF or UI. I think these 2 changes alone would fix BLM a whole lot.

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Originally Posted by Llugen

Would that also imply that Fire IV would refresh Astral? Interesting.

I think they like their timer system with Fire IV NOT refreshing but Fire III and Fire I can. Furthermore I feel like it might feel weird to spam Fire IV and get Firestarter procs then not want to use them because they are lower potency than just using another Fire IV (unless they were "stored" for movement, or Firestarter was given a potency increase over hardcast Fire III). Lastly, since there would no longer be a timer juggle (which would be a relief in a sense) it would inadvertently make the class more boring to play, which I think should be avoided.


Honest to goodness, the class is in such a bad spot right now that if I was a developer I would probably just overtune it for 4.2 and then tweak it down if necessary for 4.21 if it is discovered that it really DID become so powerful that people are just running quad BLM. See also "raw damage cannot be more valuable than well-synergized support damage".

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Yes, it would refresh astral fire too, my idea is to make enochian more impactful by making it a powered state then the polyglot stacks could be used for more advanced spells in the future.

I do agree that they like the current iteration and probably won't change it,I like it too actually, in fact I'm thinking of it on a future basis, something they might do for an expansion not for a patch and I agree that they probably will overtune BLM to make it more likeable.
That said one can still dream

I'm just going to say again that the difference between 468 potency (or 504, as it hopefully will be again) and 100/200 potency, or even 160 if that's what you're proposing is still VERY massive. (Don't forget to multiply in your Astral Fire III).

The beauty of Fire I is that not only is it 324 potency already but it also has a chance to grant Firestarter, so an instant cast Fire I into a Firestarter is actually a total potency gain over Fire IV and a MUCH smaller PPS loss than your Scathe proposal would be (plus that would mean 5.58 total seconds of movement with the Fire I + Firestarter scenario, over having to Scathe twice if you still need to move).


Here's some math, if it helps to convince you (using base cast times):

PPS of Fire IV at 280 base potency (504 total potency, i.e. if they decide to buff it) = 180
PPS of Fire I (324) = 129.6
PPS of Fire + Firestarter (324+432) = 151.2

PPS of Scathe even at 160 potency = 64
PPS of Scathe if it was fire aspected and 160 potency (288) = 115.2


The point that I am trying to prove is that BLM loses significantly more damage while moving than ANY other ranged job does. It should be punishing, yes, but right now it is FAR too punishing. Your suggestion with Scathe is STILL very punishing by losing 34% PPS. The Fire + Firestarter example is losing only 15% PPS and the Fire + Fire example is losing 28%. Please let's just retire Scathe already and fix spells that actually need fixing like Freeze and Sleep.

Fire+Firestarter is roughtly the same DPS of a Fire IV. Kinda hard to compare though because that would depend of amount of casts and other stuff. But sometimes F4 is more, sometimes the two spells are more.

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Originally Posted by Remedi

Yes, it would refresh astral fire too, my idea is to make enochian more impactful by making it a powered state then the polyglot stacks could be used for more advanced spells in the future.

I do agree that they like the current iteration and probably won't change it,I like it too actually, in fact I'm thinking of it on a future basis, something they might do for an expansion not for a patch and I agree that they probably will overtune BLM to make it more likeable.
That said one can still dream

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So basically Black Mage would be this
Blizz IV till full MP, Fire III, Fire IV till no MP, Blizz III, repeat?

And the only reason Blizz III and Fire III are in there is to cycle between the phases since the IV spells are locked up.

@LIugen

well if u rely on fire starter to proc then its still rng and will not guarantee you to safe your enochian. my proposal is to not rely on fire starter too much but more consistency in the rotation. basically in the scenario where u have to move and u would like to refresh your AF to continue your rotation where u left off when u stop moving. So scathe takes the role of fire 1 during movement. the potency for scathe was just a suggestion u can further increase it however it will make fire1 and firestarter obsolete since it doesn't rely on rng. or one reserves sharp cast for fire 1 which is a dps loss since its better used with thunder.

If we go with my previous Firestorm/Thunderstorm suggestion, then Fire IV > Fire IV > Fire from 3 Umbral Hearts will always result in a Firestarter, regardless of RNG.

While the example still uses RNG the point is that it's still less punishing to do two instant cast Fires back to back than it would be to do Scathe Scathe. You still WANT to use Fire IV and not move, but closing the punishment gap is extremely important. I am much happier with Scathe as an "execute" as something is about to die (with its current MP cost) and instead adjusting Fire I (imagine then that on the move the class would play like an instant cast 2.0 BLM) rather than trying to make Scathe into a pretend-Fire I during Astral and a Blizzard during Umbral. In my opinion, that is much better saved for Thunder/Thundercloud, which you also want to use for movement if possible.

instant casting fire4 while moving would be ideal, but i don't think they will go with something like that since its quite some changes.TBH if they want to make a pure dps class then they should be more aggressive with the potency they assign to said classes skills/spells. its always better to overshoot and later fine tune. regardless, my solution is more aimed towards the preserving enochian and your rotation after movement. making it less of a hassle.

The job should be punished for moving, just not so drastically as it is right now. Note that currently if you have to use Scathe you lose the MP table to cast another Fire IV and then you also have to cast an additional Fire to refresh the timer, so you in essence lose TWO Fire IV.

Compare this to SMN that loses a whopping 30 potency between Ruin III and Ruin II (or NONE if there's a Further Ruin proc, not to mention it can do a lap around the entire arena during DWT), and RDM which can move every other cast and Dualcast into Swiftcast for an extended movement, and utilize Corps/Displacement if necessary. And of course, BRD/MCH lose nothing from moving since #RIPBowWizard. This discrepancy is direly problematic.

@ Tzain


smn dot aoe damage is part if its sustained aoe, but smn has insane burst, that can be held on too till the time is right..., smn 3.x aoe was more if a "dot" aoe tham now, 4.x smn changed


blm start to lose their long aoe build up (precast b3, b4, sharp, thunder, fire3), when they cast any fire moves (their main dps) before the aoe starts..., they can only hold on to a thunder proc (for w limited time).., timing the long build up is a pain .. and than blm cant even sustain after the ling build up, cause adds burn to fast in every duty/raid (atleast expect fractal hard to have some sustained aoe phases)

@ SS increase, could be a fast fix, adding more dps and being more mobile with faster casts..., we'd have to use B4 for mp ticks now (making B4 more valid)., just Foul would need a 20- 25 sec build up

Well for now, unless some odd shenanigans on their end, it seems that F4 cast time will be lowered again so there's that

how will that work with the spell speed gear? if they go with lower casting time fire 4. so it will be another DH and DET/Crit stacking class. I would like to see a more creative solution that tackles the fundamental problems with the class.

@Shiroe, Refer to my post on the last page about how to address BLM aoe issues. Dropping the reliance on Transpose/server ticks with Sub-Zero and granting the Umbral Hearts for two Flares guaranteed every time without needing to hardcast Blizzard IV would be a huge gain, plus the Firestarter to get back into Astral rather than having to hardcast Fire III. On top of this, Thundersting would make great use of rapid Thundercloud procs with Thunder IV.

It still wouldn't be quite as burst-y as Summon Bahamut and two Painflares + Bane, but it would be on MUCH more equal footing.


One huge problem with BLM AoE right now (and since 3.0 really) is that hardcasting Fire III and somewhat Blizzard IV are required parts of the rotation. So you have a massive mob in front of you but in order to change stance/charge up you have to cast single target spells...? (and hardcast one of the longest casts, too, since Umbral Ice I is all you get from Transpose) This is straight up horrible design, not to mention in 3.0 it was even worse because it meant you could only use Enochian for the first 30 seconds and then you lost it.

Sub-Zero alone would virtually fix this, since it would mean no more need to rely on server ticks for MP, you're granted Umbral Ice III and three Umbral Hearts so no need to cast Blizzard IV, and then your Fire III will be either instant cast (Firestarter granted for Umbral Hearts consumed as per Firestorm) or at LEAST fast-cast since you're in Umbral Ice III.

oh some hours later it turned into a discussion what really matters and whats just shortviewed - at your service glad to trigger ;3

Sounds like maybe we've been heard \o/ I hope the changes coming up in 4.2 properly hit the problems so many people have brought up in here.

Even though I'm supportive of the dev team, I'll keep my expectations extremely low