Not who you were asking, but I can speak to my SGE idea. Basically each of the 'augmentation skills', Soteria, Pankardia, Zoe and Krasis would cost big MP (I had it at 1000, adjust for balance as needed). The 'manual choice' in this situation is that, if you need AOE healing but you're low on MP, do you have time to Kardia each person individually for a couple of shots, do you use the other Augments to make this faster, do you use Pankardia to get everyone at once albeit at the price of 'you can't augment the strength of the ticks at all' or is there just not enough time, you've screwed up somewhere earlier and ran yourself out and now have to resort to a GCD that loses you damage (but doesn't cost MP because it's your 'i screwed up' button)Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
Ty's idea had the 'effects' be seperate, distinct GCD attacks, but the general thinking is the same as mine, iirc. I was just a lot more conservative on adding new buttons, and focused more on retooling 'the ones we have'.
The Healers should be reworked? New player perspective.
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05-03-2023, 12:27 AMForsakenRoe
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05-03-2023, 12:45 AMASkellingtonI guess it doesn't make sense to me because I've never gotten in a position where I've been OOM and had to heal because I don't let myself get there. (FFXIV aside because again, MP management nonexistent).Quote:
Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe
Its a nice safety net, but to me it doesn't fix the current MP management is where I'm getting at. Especially with Dosis costing 0.
I get that the intention is that since you're a healer that heals by doing damage, making Dosis be 0 so you can still heal without being punished while giving the costs to either augementations or your emergency burst option (akin to Benediction, with a 1000k mp cost, to give an example) but I'm a visual person that needs to see what exactly it is your talking about.
Like, exactly just how often are you trying to get these augementations to be used to where MP is going to be an issue? Because I don't see it (especially with the current inc damage set up). -
05-03-2023, 04:04 AMForsakenRoe
Hard to say without a PTR really, I threw out 1000mp as a cost just as a placeholder of sorts, but it might have to be a lot more. If you can throw half your MP pool at the raidwide to heal the damage, and then nothing happens for like 40 seconds (cough P6S) then it's not really Mana Management, is it? You'd just end up back at full for the next one anyway
Working around SE's horrendous lack of HPS requirement is really difficult to do without a live test environment to double check these things -
05-03-2023, 04:43 AMty_taurusI'll explain a little about the SGE design I worked on to help explain where the MP management is meant to come into play. Note that Lucid Dreaming is removed in this concept and all healers would have different methods of managing MP instead. For starters, I made an effort to divorce SGE from SCH more by reworking how Addersgall and Addersting are used. In the concept, Addersgall was no longer a resource to spend on OGCD healing resources. Instead, Addersgall still accumulates over time, but interacts with the following spells:Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
Addersgall Spenders
- Eukrasian Diagnosis: Single target heal + barrier; costs 1200 MP
- Eukrasian Prognosis: AoE heal + barrier; costs 1200 MP
- Anamnesis: GCD personal MP refresh; roughly half as effective as Lucid Dreaming currently.
Each of these spells can be used with or without Addersgall. Addersgall will automatially be spent when casting any of those 3 spells as long as you have at least one. This causes the spell to generate 1 Addersting upon use. If cast without Addersgall, no Addersting is obtained. Addersting, meanwhile, has two spenders, both that deal the same potency damage as Dosis; however, they also enable a follow-up attack that appears on a 'hub' button similar to Continuation on GNB, or Astral Flow on SMN. This steals the name "Dyskrasia" (for thematic reasons; the AoE was renamed) and has a cooldown with charges, which exists to counter the need to dump charges during buff windows. Both the Addersting spenders and their respective OGCD follow-up actions deal the damage of 2 Dosis casts when added together and provide other effects for battle.
Having said that, these are the spells in the concept that consume MP:
MP Spenders
- Eukrasian Diagnosis: 1200 MP
- Eukrasian Prognosis: 1200 MP
- Egeiro: 2400 MP
- Paroxysm: 1000 MP; refunds 200 MP for each enemy hit to a max of 1000.
- This is your renamed AoE spell. It's now ranged and instant cast. In AoE environments, the MP will refund itself, but in single target, you can use it as a mobility tool at an MP tax.
- Polydipsia: 1200 MP
- GCD Dosis-potency attack that grants 4 stacks of Soteria to your Kardia target.
- Eukrasian Polydipsia: 1200 MP
- GCD Dosis-potency attack that grants 2 stacks of Differential Soteria to your Kardia target; causes Kardia effects to spread to nearby party members.
- Bia: 1200 MP
- GCD Dosis-potency attack that grants you the effect of Zoe.
- Eukrasian Bia: 1200 MP
- GCD Dosis-potency attack that grants you 1 Addersgall (Roe and I discussed in the past this may need changing).
- Pneuma: 800 MP (has a cooldown)
- Holos: 800 MP (has a cooldown)
- Reworked into a GCD Dosis-potency attack that applies a regen in an AoE; applies an increased healing receive effect to your Kardia target which can be spread through Differential Soteria's effect.
- Eukrasian Holos: 800 MP (has a cooldown)
- The other half of the rework that deals GCD Dosis-potency damage and applies a berrier in an AoE; also applies a 10% mitigation to your Kardia target which can be spread through Differential Soteria's effect.
There's a lot of nuances to the kit that I could go into even more detail with, but the point is really just that there are many different resources to spend MP on. Personally, I don't think it makes sense for any job to have no way to attack if they run out of MP or TP for that matter. Every job should at least have a basic attack that has no cost, in SGE's case Dosis, that way you can't actually be bricked. Currently, it's very unlikely for a player to get bricked, but if you have a system like this where there are a lot of big spenders, a less experienced SGE can far more easily shoot themselves in the foot. -
05-03-2023, 04:48 AMRenathras
Semi, Roe - a question:
What if we made WHM the DoT mage (what everyone seems to want) and had SCH be the one that stays as it is? SCH's already the second most complex (after AST), and it pairs nicely with SMN for being "level this if you want something simple". (And, of course, SGE be damage focused BLM-like Chloromancer and AST be...the buffing one? Whatever at this point.) For a while, I've considered this the less logical choice given SCH's history, but there is _A_ logic to it considering being paired with SMN and that it remaining as is wouldn't be the "braindead" that people accuse current WHM of being.
(Granted, I would still make SOME changes to SCH personally - like having Physic upgrade into a less MP expensive Adlo, Lustrate into Excog without a CD, and probably combining a few things like Fey Blessing/Fey Illumination [lots of oGCD heals at this point have "heals a paltry amount and does X other thing] and doing...something different with ED, Aetherpact, and Faerie Gauge, maybe have ED run off Faerie Gauge instead since the new Excog could be used as an AF dump and the Survey did have decoupling ED from AF as a big thing people wanted. Oh, and SOMEthing with Dissipation, also a commonly hated topic from the Survey. Maybe replace Ruin 2 with instant cast Miasma. That might be interesting. Make it like Dia where it has a hit of damage on application but still instant cast and with a relatively short duration like 15 sec or something so it can be used as a movement tool. But meh. Details. Though...that could work...)
I think I might try this one out for a while, considering "leave WHM alone" is so toxic to people who praise current SCH (by comparison), and it has a certain type of logic to it I can appreciate.
Easy solutions, right?
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Nah, I know you'd oppose that, too. But at least you'd get your elementalist better-part-of-a-dozen DoTs per minute WHM out of the bargain. :)
(Half-dozen meaning 15/12 sec Aero duration - 4 or 5 x per min - and Aero III 2-3x per minute, with some Tornado mixed in should get close to a dozen...)
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Anyway, that aside, a General post if you guys feel inclined to comment on it: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...14#post6241914
I know plenty of you might have some input, and as much as we disagree, I actually do find your opinions interesting pretty often. -
05-03-2023, 05:43 AMty_taurus
I don't think you understand why anyone disagrees with you.
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05-03-2023, 06:09 AMASkellingtonProbably something I'd need to play and interact with then. I don't think it means Dosis should cost 0. Less maybe, because you can always tweak MP values, but not 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
/shrugs Difference of opinion there. -
05-03-2023, 07:01 AMRenathrasDoesn't help you give different reasons based on what mood suits you at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
Anyway, go read: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...33#post6242033 -
05-03-2023, 07:25 AMty_taurusI don't see what having chip MP costs is supposed to offer for the gameplay experience of any job. How does that benefit my experience? What does that MP cost do to my interactions with my gameplay?Quote:
Originally Posted by ASkellington
That's either a lie, or you have a very distorted memory of what people have talked about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The reason that has been given over and over, and the one we continue to bring up is that no job in the game should have a gameplay loop that dedicates more than half of your playtime to 1 singular button--and inversely, every job should offer the player the ability to noticeably improve their overall output, as having the ability to improve and deal more damage means you can assist your team by giving them more room for error. Never has anyone said anything otherwise that I have seen.
Not only that, though, quite literally everyone has also said that there can still be a job that is forgiving and has a low barrier of entry, but that doesn't mean that job cannot have more than just that entry point. As has been proven many times constantly throughout this forum, nearly everything in the game can be cleared with minimal effort anyway, so no one is being excluded by content on the basis of not being able to output the absolute maximum DPS possible of that job. -
05-03-2023, 07:39 AMRenathrasGo to that link, think about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ty_taurus
And no, it isn't.
The reasons have been as varied as "so people won't be bored", "so high end people won't be bored without harming casual players", "so causal players won't be able to 'get carried'", "so 1 button spam isn't a thing", "so skill expression can exist - AND be significant enough to be relevant", "so casual players won't be able to clear high end content", "so healing well can be rewarded with more buttons to press that do damage", "because healing in this game should be DPS primarily and support healing on the side, like an ARPG", and "because the game isn't designed for more healing and so must cater to more damage rotation since we have more damage uptime".
[EDIT: Oh, and that's leaving out the "it's always been this way" and "because the CNJ questline says so" reasons, which have been debunked.]
You're either lying or have a very distorted memory of what people have talked about - or, perhaps, are blind - if you have never seen this.
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Anyway, go read my SCH proposal.
Does that qualify for "forgiving and has a low barrier of entry" that has "more than just that entry point"?