Astrologian buffs confirmed

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Originally Posted by Rahaya

You guys keep using that phrase. 'Miss the point.' You are not using it correctly or do not know what it means. I addressed that. I asked what raid situation. That's a direct reference to your last bullet point regarding action breaks. By that logic, half the utility of BRDs and MCN are of no use whatsoever. Goad? No one needs Goad. I find that assumption problematic as even in 'easy' content there is a need for it. It is indeed situational. I didn't say it wasn't. So is singing Paeon. It also costs the AST nothing to use, and can't exactly be wasted like Goad can. I mean, yes, I don't use most of my SCH cooldowns outside of raid too. That is...not a very good argument. I said 'just because it isn't a straight damage increase != worthless.'

No more or less.

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Ok, let's start over.

Examples of existing raid situations where TP expenditure is of limited concern: T12 and T13. Why? Both fights are primarily about single-target damage and have significant breaks where there is nothing to hit (e.g. T12's final phase and T13's Divebombs and Teraflare transition).

The reason why you don't see a lot of specific examples flying around is that most of us consider this so obvious that it doesn't require explanation. By contrast, fights where there is ALWAYS something to hit and players do not get removed from the action for any serious length of time (e.g. T10) benefit from buffs like Paeon and Spire.

Goad can be useful outside of raid settings when you have melee AoE to support or a speed-running tank to keep juiced up. Spire can also be useful in these situations (provided, of course, that you actually have it when you want it; you're not likely to use your Spread slot for it, after all).

BRD and MCH resource regeneration IS worthless when parties aren't hurting for TP/MP.

The biggest issue isn't that resource regeneration and mitigation are too useless; it's that AST's tools for party resource management are far too situational and random as they are right now. There also shouldn't be encounters where 4/6 of your cards are so irrelevant that no one would notice their presence or absence, but sometimes this is the case.

As far as missing the point, I cited exactly which point you were missing.

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Originally Posted by Rahaya

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The reason you see the damage bonus of Balance being used as a measure, is because it is the most quantifiable benefit that AST can offer to a group, regardless of composition or setting; at the very least it's the most measurable. In reailty, AST offers a myriad of mildly un-necessary/un-impactful buffs in an 8-man setting. At no point will AST offer something more useful than SCH/WHM combo can during progression, especially since it's utility is based on RNG.

In a 4-man setting, the only worthwhile card buffs are Balance and Arrow; Ewer and Spire are entirely worthless, and Bole and Spear are mostly worthless. This is where the usefulness of the class' core mechanics really falls short. Yes, Ewer, Spire, and Bole can still be used for RR, but that still hinges on RNG for the next card to be Balance or Arrow.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

The biggest issue isn't that resource regeneration and mitigation are too useless; it's that AST's tools for party resource management are far too situational and random as they are right now. There also shouldn't be encounters where 4/6 of your cards are so irrelevant that no one would notice their presence or absence, but sometimes this is the case.

As far as missing the point, I cited exactly which point you were missing.

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Thank you for confirming that it is a case of not knowing what it means. Someone disagreeing does not mean they are missing the point. It means they disagree. You said resource regen isn't of use when you don't need it. I pointed out the 2 components of raid parties that *do* need it as a direct counter to that point. Tanks have TP issues, now. My NIN has TP issues now. When someone dies, that is a TP issue.

As a NIN through Second and Final Coil, I am very aware of the TP issues there. First phase T13, the MNK needed Goad. The PLD needed TP. T12 first phase, the MNK needed Goad or song while preparing for Bennu phase. The PLD needed TP. Right now? I floor it in Alex 4 on my NIN. I run low in Alex 1 and 2. The same fights, but harder = TP issues. That's what *I* am extrapolating from. Your 'obvious' is very much not.

Spear is very noticeable. The longer cds the better. Had a PLD pop Hallowed Ground for shits and giggles just because it was back a minute or so early. Running Alex today, got a lot of Spires. Threw them on the DRK. Every time we do Floor 4, like clockwork he asks the NIN for Goad. He didn't have to today. Failed going for AoE Balance in Ravana, got a RR Ewer. Incredibly noticeable on my mana costs. I have tons of examples, because I don't play with my glass half empty constantly wishing each card was a Balance.

You know what no one notices? I'm pretty sure people only realize I have Selene out when Fey Wind makes it flashy animation and noise =P

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

In a 4-man setting, the only worthwhile card buffs are Balance and Arrow; Ewer and Spire are entirely worthless, and Bole and Spear are mostly worthless. This is where the usefulness of the class' core mechanics really falls short. Yes, Ewer, Spire, and Bole can still be used for RR, but that still hinges on RNG for the next card to be Balance or Arrow.

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Do you know how many abilities that are worthless in 4 - man content on my SCH?

To counter, the AST does indeed offer at least 1 thing more useful than the WHM/SCH. The ability to stack defensive cooldowns such as Virus + Disable and Collective + Sacred Soil, Bole + Eye for an Eye. I find it funny, almost. The card buffs such as Bole have identical end effects as much longer cooldowns. What makes the other buffs like Eye for an Eye super useful, but if an AST uses Bole it's an 'unnecessary' and 'un-impactful' buff? That is my argument. Please answer that question.

Consider, lets say, we double that base potency because RNG nerf and make Ewer/Spire refresh. 1 in six chance to draw it, make it worth when we do, right? So, the AST is now capable of giving out raid wide 10% damage buff for 5 secs longer than trick attack. Goad card. Mana song card. If I draw a Bole, I can give my tanks Rampart. Royal Road it for Vengeance/Shadow Wall. AoE Sacred Soil! Whoo! Arrow card is now a better haste than Greased Lightning 3/Huoton. Spear is 10% short from halving CD timers. And SE fixes Lightspeed/Collective/Celestial to be solid healing CDs keeping Time Dilation and Celestial still extends effects by 5 seconds.

Where is AST on the healer totem pole then?

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Originally Posted by Rahaya

Do you know how many abilities that are worthless in 4 - man content on my SCH?

To counter, the AST does indeed offer at least 1 thing more useful than the WHM/SCH. The ability to stack defensive cooldowns such as Virus + Disable and Collective + Sacred Soil, Bole + Eye for an Eye. I find it funny, almost. The card buffs such as Bole have identical end effects as much longer cooldowns. What makes the other buffs like Eye for an Eye super useful, but if an AST uses Bole it\\'s an 'unnecessary' and 'un-impactful' buff? That is my argument. Please answer that question.

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Again, you've missed the point I was originally making by creating another argument that was meaningless (something you seem to be good at). AST has several useless cards/abilities, especially dependent on group composition, in a 4-man environment; it makes the class very unrewarding to play in these circumstances, where a WHM\SCH would be far more useful/rewarding.

Some of the SCH skills are useless in 4-man content? Yes. However, SCH still has a myriad of other useful skills to use in 4-man content; if the faerie or aetherflow skills didn't work in 4-man content, it wouldn't be fun, either. Many of AST's core concept skills are useless in 4-man content, however, especially the card buffs. AST's are all also RNG based and unreliable.

At least I can count on E4E to be up on a large pull to debuff multiple mobs; the same of Sacred Soil. Can I do the same for Bole? No. Bole is essentially useless in 4-man content, outside of large pulls; however, I'd say the same of SS. In the same situation, E4E and SS is at least always available (yes, reliant on a proc).

Disable + Virus is nice, yes. Again though, Disable is consumed by auto-attacks and must be flawlessly timed in order to be useful. Useless? No. Worth brining an AST during progression? No.

You are arguing in a vacuum about AST cards and utility. Do Bole and Sacred Soil stack? Yes. Can you count on expanded Bole to be available when needed? No. Therefore, WHM's healing potential is far more valuable in progression content.

EDIT: Nice edit on your post, to include a hypothetical question about how awesome AST would be if they were buffed by 100%. No one is suggesting that; so why bother asking such a ridiculous question? Again, you seem to be mostly interested in creating arguments rather than discussion, by creating circumstances that don't exist to prove your "point".

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Originally Posted by GideonHighmourn

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Alright, taking a step back I think I see the issue. From my experience playing AST, Spread is mostly the answer to any RNG woes. If I want a card for a situation, I make sure I have it. Therefore, theoretical RNG on card draws almost never plays out that way. Everything else I get in between is a bonus. The AST core concept I see as being a healer that can compliment both a WHM or a SCH. Does it have the healing tools required to heal like they do? Not right now. That is why I am a big proponent of changing the CDs.

"The cards don't make up for lack of healing" is an argument that never existed here. No one disagrees. My first post was essentially 'cards fine, fix healing.' Which spiraled into 'cards are not fine, cause they don't make up for healing ASTs currently lack!' If you want the definition of making up an argument...I said, rather plainly, that I was arguing against buffing both aspects. One of which is confirmed to get some love. Title of this thread. I assumed you were arguing what I said and defending from the assumption that *if the healing is fixed then the cards...* But here you are, claiming I am missing the point of the AST healing is lacking and the cards..don't...make up for it...

Well then.

Ladies and Gentlemen, behold! Talking past people. If AST healing is where it should be *post* buffs, I don't think the card effects need buffs. Although random, they are versatile and can be manipulated. Right now, they are not a good progression healer because they lack emergencies. The CDs must be fixed. Fix the CDs SE. More options than Benefic spam. Outside of that, I find the cards a nice cherry on top and shouldn't be made stronger than they are. Because, provided the healing is up to snuff, the AST has a neat toolbox of utility that won't need to carry anything.

Is there anything in the above paragraph that is problematic for you?

I'd argue that the cards can't really be manipulated ENOUGH (Spread/Shuffle being up for every Draw would help TREMENDOUSLY with this), but other than that I agree with what you've said. Some of the buffs people have wanted to give the cards have bordered on "somewhat OP" to "ridiculously broken, dual AST onry pls".

I've always been a supporter of better tools to mitigate card RNG rather than boosted potencies to their effects. I actually don't mind their healing potencies, minus a few quibbles (Nocturnal Aspected Benefic sucks, Collective Unconscious is underwhelming and Lightspeed is VERY situational; borderline useless skill). Adjust those things and focus on giving us more card playing tools and I'll be happy.

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Originally Posted by loreleidiangelo

I've always been a supporter of better tools to mitigate card RNG rather than boosted potencies to their effects. I actually don't mind their healing potencies, minus a few quibbles (Nocturnal Aspected Benefic sucks, Collective Unconscious is underwhelming and Lightspeed is VERY situational; borderline useless skill). Adjust those things and focus on giving us more card playing tools and I'll be happy.

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I think a Shuffle adjustment to axe drawing the same card would go pretty far on its own. I personally would love Spread being out of combat enabled for those pulls and really early situations. What would fix Nocturnal Aspected do you think? Is it just the inability to crit shield that's the problem?

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Originally Posted by Rahaya

I think a Shuffle adjustment to axe drawing the same card would go pretty far on its own. I personally would love Spread being out of combat enabled for those pulls and really early situations. What would fix Nocturnal Aspected do you think? Is it just the inability to crit shield that's the problem?

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It's the inability to Crit shield AND the fact that diurnal regens benefit from time dilation/celestial opposition. I honestly don't know how they would fix nocturnal. I'd rather not get a double shield from Crit but rather get something unique attached to it, but who knows if they will even tweak it....even though it's very obvious they should.

A lot of SCH's "power" comes from their ability to land power shields on players with relatively good RNG. Consider that both Deployment Tactics and Emergency Tactics are two post-50 SCH moves that are insanely powerful if the initial Adloquium crits, and you can see that SE had implemented SCH shields as a very critical part of SCH play, and it doesn't feel that way with Nocturnal AST. AST not only doesn't have the crit shield; it's base potency is weaker, and it has no "auxillary" moves that utilize the shield either (meanwhile single AST Regen and AOE AST Regen stack, and are extended by Opposition/Dilation).

AST "feels" a lot more similar to WHM in it's "WHM" stance, but feels like a WHM with an instant-cast Stoneskin in Nocturnal. To "fix" it the way I like would require their entire move set pretty much change depending on Sect though, which is likely too complicated to implement. More moves involved around the shielding aspect, like the ability to axe the shield on next Aspected Benefic in order to power up a card buff that's already on the target or something. Similar to Emergency Tactics, but revolved around the AST cards instead of raw healing throughput.

A Shuffle fix would be nice, but I still want more tools cuz I'm greedy. :D Like the ability to hold a card, kinda like Spread, but then you combine it with the next card effect so you could use two buffs on one player. You couldn't "hold" the card indefinitely, like Spread, but at least if you get like TP reduction during a boss invuln phase you'd have an option to still get a "use" out of it on the next Draw. Kinda like Royal Road, but with stacking buffs instead of simply "powering up" the next card.